Israel/Gaza - Here we go again...

Arol wrote:Your use of the word “genocide” is incredible!
There are two sides in the Gaza War. On one side Israel, on the other Gaza/Hamas. Now which of those two sides has as its prime goal genocide of the other?

Well, looking at who is being killed right now, that's pretty clear isn't it?

Hamas has both in words and deeds openly made no secret in that its very existence is based on expunging Israel and all Israelis’ from the face of the globe! That they currently possess neither the ways and means to accomplish their aim, yet, Oct 7th, showed their intention to the whole world.

Sure. And everything after that, every innocent palestinian killed, every hospital, school or apartment building bombed under spurious pretexts shows the Israeli leadership's intentions regarding Ghaza and the palestinian population.

As for the Israelis, they possess both the ways and means; whether nuclear, biological or chemical to carry out the “genocide” of which you’re accusing them!

Genocide can take many forms. It doesn't have to be through weapons of mass destruction, as history very clearly shows.
The UN's convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide states:

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Now, how many of these things can the Israeli government be credibly accused of with regards to Ghaza?

Will you actually maintain that Gaza/Hamas; if they were obtained the same means would, would practice the same restraint?

Nope. Never have, never will.

Israel is trying to root out an enemy that has sworn to destroy them. The very fact that there are still over 3 million Gazans crawling from one pile of rubble to another, proves the fallacy of your accusation!

Wrong. A government does not need to be successful or quick about it in order to be found guilty of engaging in genocidal actions.

Also, just curious here: What exactly do you think is the path to success here for Israel? How many palestinians do they need to kill before Hamas is "rooted out"? How will they ever be able to make peace with that population?

Israel wanted a solution to the Hamas problem. They have spent years and decades increasing the pressure on Hamas until Hamas saw no other way out other than to attack - an attack that was and still is answered with overwhelming, disproportionate force, and now we're almost a year into this clusterfuck and the only solution left to Israel is to finish what they started - and that path, inevitably in my view, ends in the palestinian population of Ghaza being either killed or driven into diaspora. But again, please, I beg you: Convince me that that isn't the case.

The sad yet amusing thing is that the Hamas leadership are totally unable to contemplate the one route that would completely and totally destroy Israel in the eyes of the world.

Non violent protests.
Sitting down and singing.
Large pieces of artwork that highlight the problems the Palestinians have without trying to demonise the Isrealis.
Public readings of the names of those killed in the up-to-that-point conflict.
Standing candlelit vigils.

Had they been able to think beyond "must kill all who are not us", they could have forced Israel to effectively collapse, but from what has happened so far, it would appear that the Hamas leadership lack the education, philosophical capabilities and moral courage to go down that route.

Hamas throw stones constantly. It should be no surprise that they end up triggering landslides that bury them and all around them.
Israel is blessed in having enemies who are totally incapable of thinking strategically, only tactically.

Michael Everett wrote:Hamas throw stones constantly. It should be no surprise that they end up triggering landslides that bury them and all around them.
Israel is blessed in having enemies who are totally incapable of thinking strategically, only tactically.

There's two parties to this whole process, and Israel isn't exactly negotiating in good faith either.

The E wrote:There's two parties to this whole process, and Israel isn't exactly negotiating in good faith either.

Yet Israel has taken far less damage overall. If Hamas had negotiated in good faith, it would be Israel that would have taken the damage in the eyes of the world.
Israel doesn't have to negotiate in good faith, it just has to do better than Hamas and that is not a high bar to clear.
Hell, at this point, the bar is so low that a snake would find it hard to get underneath.

It's like outrunning a bear. You don't need to go faster than the bear, you just need to go faster than at least one other person.
To win, Israel just need to be slightly less publically genocidal than Hamas and that is exactly what they are doing.

The E wrote:...Well, looking at who is being killed right now, that's pretty clear isn't it?...

You are aware, aren’t you, that in war people get killed? Also the in modern warfare it’s usually civilians that bear the brunt of those killed? One only has to go back to WWII to prove that. Take Hiroshima or Dresden! How many of those killed were combatants, and how many were non-combatants? Does that mean that those who dropped the bombs were trying to commit “genocide”? no, it was war.
As for your “genocide” allegation, again here in modern there have only been two instances where genocide has been an official state policy. One was Germany, the other Gaza/Hamas. (The same Hamas you are so busy defending!) In both instances the target for genocide was Jews!!! So is any wonder that the IDF is trying to root out Hamas, root and branch?
You were correct in saying that genocide wouldn’t have to be done using WMD’s, bullets and ordinary bombs are much cheaper.
In the current war millions of round must have been fired. If your allegations and that Israel is correct committed to a campaign of genocide. then would not Gaza today be composed of mounds of stinking corpses?
Yet, there’s still over three million Palestinians able to move from one pile of rubble to another!

Arol wrote:You are aware, aren’t you, that in war people get killed?

Yep.

Also the in modern warfare it’s usually civilians that bear the brunt of those killed?

Yep, that too.

One only has to go back to WWII to prove that. Take Hiroshima or Dresden! How many of those killed were combatants, and how many were non-combatants? Does that mean that those who dropped the bombs were trying to commit “genocide”? no, it was war.

That's kind of arguable? The ICJ defines genocide as a crime of intent, as in, the motivation behind it matters when trying to figure out whether or not a given party is guilty of committing acts of genocide; We know that the aim of the strategic bombing campaign in WW2 was to reduce the war production capability and fighting spirit of the german populace - both goals that post-war jurisprudence has deemed to be legitimate and not inherently genocidal.
Now, whether or not one agrees with the ICJ (I, for the record, tend to), that's at least a neat guideline to follow. It is my opinion, nothing more and nothing less, that Israel's intent goes far beyond attempting to bring Hamas terrorists to justice and that their ongoing efforts are aimed at removing the palestinians from Ghaza - and that, as quoted in the definitions of genocidal actions in a previous post of mine, does constitute a genocidal act.

As for your “genocide” allegation, again here in modern there have only been two instances where genocide has been an official state policy. One was Germany, the other Gaza/Hamas.

Nope, way more than two. The expulsion of germans from eastern europe post-WW2 is arguably a genocidal act. The aftermath of the partitioning of India certainly featured some genocidal acts. Australia, and it's long running program of separating aborigine children from their families was aimed at eradicating aborigine culture, and as such is a genocidal act. Nigeria. Cambodia. Burundi. Indonesia. Tibet. Bosnia and Herzegovina. Rwanda. Somalia.
It's a long fucking list of atrocities, all of which happened after WW2.

(The same Hamas you are so busy defending!)

It is here that I must ask you to take a step back, read back through my posts on this topic, and please quote me defending Hamas. I strive for precision in my expressions, and I believe I have been very clear that my sympathy is reserved for palestinians, not Hamas; While I understand the Hamas position, I neither condone it, nor the actions taken in support of it.

My friend, you are making the same mistake other people on this forum have made in dealing with my posts: You are reacting to a version of me that exists solely in your head, and more importantly, you are letting that reaction override any critical reading skills you possess. You react viscerally to the idea that anyone could defend Hamas, you imagine that I am doing so, and so the points I am actually making are flying right over your head. You are astonished that someone could or would accuse Israel, of all countries, of genocide, and you dismiss this out of hand without actually engaging with the topic.

The short version is that, in my opinion, the attacks of October 7th do not and can not justify destruction and suffering on the scale that the IDF is currently inflicting on Ghaza. It does not justify the blockade of aid convoys, it does not justify attacks on refugee columns, it does not justify bombing runs and artillery bombardments of hospitals. That's the entirety of my position in this discussion - you may, of course, disagree and say that those actions were necessary to kill Hamas leaders or fighters hiding out amongst the innocents, but for my part I have seen enough evidence of israeli forces manufacturing ex post facto evidence for the presence of such targets that I am unable to believe that these atrocities actually do fulfill a legitimate military purpose.
It is my opinion that this is Netanyahu making his threats that he will "turn all the places where Hamas is organized and hiding into cities of ruins" true - and that, as per all of the definitions I cited above, is a clear indication of genocidal intent. He wants a "total victory" in Gaza - and I am pretty sure that for him, a total victory means that there will be no palestinians left in the territories claimed by Israel.
Hell, while we're at it, let's examine Netanyahu some more. He said, in 2019, that

Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.

If you think I am supporting Hamas, what is this by comparison? Shouldn't you be out here, condemning the israeli government for letting money reach Hamas from the outside?
What does it say about a government when it supports an organization that is sworn to said government's destruction, according to you?
Netanyahu and his government are, in my opinion, not interested in any peace that palestinians would be willing to accept. They are acting as oppressive colonial powers have always acted.

In both instances the target for genocide was Jews!!! So is any wonder that the IDF is trying to root out Hamas, root and branch?

No. But again, I ask you: What does victory look like for Israel? How many palestinians must die before Hamas is rooted out? What number are you comfortable with?

You were correct in saying that genocide wouldn’t have to be done using WMD’s, bullets and ordinary bombs are much cheaper.
In the current war millions of round must have been fired. If your allegations and that Israel is correct committed to a campaign of genocide. then would not Gaza today be composed of mounds of stinking corpses?

Again, no. Something like this does not need to be quick, or efficient, or even particularly successful. It's the intent that matters as much as the methods.

Yet, there’s still over three million Palestinians able to move from one pile of rubble to another!

So, first of all, the population of Gaza was around 2 million, not 3. Most of these people have had their homes damaged or destroyed, electricity and water have been cut, and aid is blockaded. Diseases run rampant. If a bullet is cheaper than a WMD, then starvation and disease are cheaper still, if slower.

The E wrote: Nope, way more than two. The expulsion of germans from eastern europe post-WW2 is arguably a genocidal act. The aftermath of the partitioning of India certainly featured some genocidal acts. Australia, and it's long running program of separating aborigine children from their families was aimed at eradicating aborigine culture, and as such is a genocidal act. Nigeria. Cambodia. Burundi. Indonesia. Tibet. Bosnia and Herzegovina. Rwanda. Somalia.
It's a long fucking list of atrocities, all of which happened after WW2.

You made some very cogent points in your post.
That said, you glossed over some or ignored some, that IMO are the key ones.
1) Your repeated assertions that Gaza is separate from Hamas.
They are not!
In ’06 Gaza put into power a Hamas Administration, who as their primary agenda was the Destruction of Israel and its Jewish populace!
So IMO having accepted Hamas, they also accepted their primary agenda .They climbed into bed with the devil, and are now reaping the consequences thereof!!!
The sociopaths that carried out the atrocities on Oct. 7 were Gazans.
Now that said. Between 1933-1945, 5,000,000 million Jews were sent to the ovens in Germany. Something that would inevitably leave scars on the survivors! One of those scars, that by now is probably engraved in their DNA is: NEVER AGAIN!!!
Israel is surrounded by over 500,000,000 Muslims that wouldn’t shed a tear if they were expunged!
So when Hamas on Oct.7, sent their thugs into Israel top commit their atrocity, what did they imagine on how Israel would react?
Israel had to react in strength,
So a question to you is: How should Israel have reacted to October 7?
Sit and twiddle their thumbs, counting on world opinion? That didn’t work in 1933-45!!!

Arol wrote:You made some very cogent points in your post.
That said, you glossed over some or ignored some, that IMO are the key ones.
1) Your repeated assertions that Gaza is separate from Hamas.
They are not!
In ’06 Gaza put into power a Hamas Administration, who as their primary agenda was the Destruction of Israel and its Jewish populace!
So IMO having accepted Hamas, they also accepted their primary agenda .They climbed into bed with the devil, and are now reaping the consequences thereof!!!
The sociopaths that carried out the atrocities on Oct. 7 were Gazans.

I asked you how many palestinians must die before Hamas is rooted out. Is this your answer, then? Are you honestly saying that every last one of them is, in some form, guilty and therefore every single one of them should be punished or killed?

How much do you know about the elections in Gaza? Are you aware that they didn't actually have any worthy of the name since Hamas essentially took over governance in 2007? If you want to make the claim that Hamas is a democratically legitimized government and that thus the population of Gaza should share collective responsibility for Hamas' actions, prove it.

Please, I ask you: Think about what you are saying here. What the implications of your positions are, and how comfortable you are with them.

Now that said. Between 1933-1945, 5,000,000 million Jews were sent to the ovens in Germany. Something that would inevitably leave scars on the survivors! One of those scars, that by now is probably engraved in their DNA is: NEVER AGAIN!!!

Yes, and that trauma and the resulting national myths of Israel are an important factor in this whole equation. Israel claims that it, and only it, is a safe state for jews to exist in. That its actions are justified under the grand umbrella of carving out a space for jews in their ancestral homeland. That they have an inherent right to the land and a right to rule.
But, as all national myths, it has to be interrogated. It has to be examined and analyzed and seen in context - and most importantly, it has to be criticized if it births narratives and attitudes that lead to dark places.
The zionist ideology has very understandable origins and goals. But it also led to the establishment of Israel in the form of a colony in the british mold - including a willingness to trample all over the rights of the people who were already living where the colony sets up shop. Israel, as it currently exists, is a wound that is not allowed to heal - its existance is fundamentally based on the exercise of colonial power, and as long as Israel continues to oppress palestinians, it will always invite domestic terror.

Israel is surrounded by over 500,000,000 Muslims that wouldn’t shed a tear if they were expunged!

And why is that? Do you think that everyone of those people is just rabidly antisemitic? Is it possible that Israel's own policies, its actions are a factor here as well?
I would strongly recommend you read up on the history of Israel, and the 1948 war. Israel, in as much as it is often cast as the victim of oppression and terror and as much sympathy as we in the west have for the victims and survivors of the holocaust, is not blameless in this matter.

So when Hamas on Oct.7, sent their thugs into Israel top commit their atrocity, what did they imagine on how Israel would react?
Israel had to react in strength,
So a question to you is: How should Israel have reacted to October 7?
Sit and twiddle their thumbs, counting on world opinion? That didn’t work in 1933-45!!!

I don't know. I don't think anyone does.

There is a concept I believe in that I call "the logic of Empire". I am sure it has a formalized name in the actual literature on the subject of the exercise of power, but what I mean by it is that states have enormous amounts of inertia - that by the sheer power of convention, of "accepted" behaviour, institutions and states get trapped in patterns that they cannot easily escape from. Israel, or at the very least the Netanyahu government, is committed to removing the palestinian threat - this is something they worked on for decades; in some sense, it is something that the israeli state began the moment it declared its independence. Israel's political reflexes require that force must be answered with force; an attack must be answered with overwhelming force to ensure that the attack cannot be repeated. As far as the israeli leadership is concerned, no other way is possible - the idea of Israel stepping back and rolling with the punches is anathema to its political establishment. This is the logic of Empire: Action is taken because it is seen as necessary, and the course of action is dictated by the sum of all prior actions - to change course is to invite danger and instability, and thus it seems inevitable that Israel would react in any other way.

The E wrote:Hell, while we're at it, let's examine Netanyahu some more. He said, in 2019, that

Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.

If you think I am supporting Hamas, what is this by comparison? Shouldn't you be out here, condemning the israeli government for letting money reach Hamas from the outside?
What does it say about a government when it supports an organization that is sworn to said government's destruction, according to you?
Netanyahu and his government are, in my opinion, not interested in any peace that palestinians would be willing to accept. They are acting as oppressive colonial powers have always acted.

And that is what I find so mindbogglingly stupid and amoral, that Israel helped put Hamas in power for the sole purpose of making sure there wouldn't be an independent Palestinian state. When you support a known terrorist organization just to stop Palestinians from forming an independent state you have shown everyone that you lack any kind of morals what so ever and no one should be surprised by the methods Israel are willing to employ to make sure Palestinians become a footnote in history books.

Israel lost any moral high ground when they allowed Hamas to flourish. Every person killed in the attack October 7th is entirely on the head on the political leadership of Israel, so is every Palestinian killed since then.

Joat42 wrote:Israel lost any moral high ground when they allowed Hamas to flourish. Every person killed in the attack October 7th is entirely on the head on the political leadership of Israel, so is every Palestinian killed since then.

Yeah, that's the thing that jumped out at me when I actually started to read up on what this whole conflict was about a couple years ago.
Here in Germany, our government has a policy of supporting Israel. This is something that goes by almost unquestioned, and looking at german history, it is easy to see why this is the case. It is hard to criticize the israeli government without being accused of antisemitism on some levels, and this stifles the discussions that, IMHO, need to happen around this topic.

But what this leads to is that the reflexive reaction to any criticism of Israel is very similar to Arol's postings here: "How can you defend Hamas, they're terrorists!" is the common theme here.
And when someone like me goes in and really tries to find out just why this conflict has been going on this long and what its driving forces are beyond reflexive reactions to statements in the Hamas charter of 1988 or the narrative of the antisemitic muslim, then it slowly dawns on you that Israel, as much as we would like to believe it to be (and as much as it wants us to believe it is) a shining bastion of western values in a sea of hostile states, is in fact one of the major drivers of escalation and atrocity in the region.

For me, going through this process meant unlearning some rhetorical reflexes. It meant recognizing that my view of palestinians, of the countries surrounding Israel, was offensively reductive. That to blindly condemn palestinians for supporting Hamas, or Hamas for holding the goals it does, is to ignore the underlying issues - fundamentally, just as Israel has a right to exist, so does Palestine. If we recognize the zionist assertion that jews require a state for themselves in the geographical region that is their ancestral home as legitimate, then so do we need to recognize the same right for palestinians.