The punishment of the group of four

Personally I am in favor of an execution, plain and simple. I believe that a lifetime of evil cannot be redeemed by "finding god" in the last few days/years. That's a theological discussion so maybe I shouldn't mention it..

I can't really say what would happen in the real world, but in novels, if you don't kill the bad guys, they are always around, causing mischief. Especially those who are "religious fanatics".

So, off with their heads. ;-)

(BTW, has the guillotine been invented on Safehold?)

So you believe that a person can not turn away from his own evil?

Jth8s wrote:Personally I am in favor of an execution, plain and simple. I believe that a lifetime of evil cannot be redeemed by "finding god" in the last few days/years. That's a theological discussion so maybe I shouldn't mention it..

I can't really say what would happen in the real world, but in novels, if you don't kill the bad guys, they are always around, causing mischief. Especially those who are "religious fanatics".

So, off with their heads. ;-)

(BTW, has the guillotine been invented on Safehold?)

Jth8s wrote:Personally I am in favor of an execution, plain and simple. I believe that a lifetime of evil cannot be redeemed by "finding god" in the last few days/years. That's a theological discussion so maybe I shouldn't mention it..

I can't really say what would happen in the real world, but in novels, if you don't kill the bad guys, they are always around, causing mischief. Especially those who are "religious fanatics".

So, off with their heads. ;-)

(BTW, has the guillotine been invented on Safehold?)

I quite agree Jth8s that just because a person (supposedly) finds God doesn't mean that they should be let off at the last minute. Indeed If they really have found God (I didn't know he was missing) they will WANT to face consequences for their actions- that's called personal responsibility.


But it should also be noted that the composer of the Christian Hymn "amazing grace" was a mass murder and Rapist.

Before he came a Christian he worked on slave ships where he killed thousands of Africans.

(Which at the time was legal)

In my view he was redeemed by an "Amazing Grace" which is why it is called Grace because it is not deserved or merited.

DrakBibliophile wrote:So you believe that a person can not turn away from his own evil?

Jth8s wrote:Personally I am in favor of an execution, plain and simple. I believe that a lifetime of evil cannot be redeemed by "finding god" in the last few days/years. That's a theological discussion so maybe I shouldn't mention it..

I can't really say what would happen in the real world, but in novels, if you don't kill the bad guys, they are always around, causing mischief. Especially those who are "religious fanatics".

(BTW, has the guillotine been invented on Safehold?)

[/quote

Correct! I do not believe that people change and or that they should be forgiven for the kind of sins the group of 4 committed.
So, off with their heads. ;-)

I think I would like to have chains wrapped around the wrists and ankles of each of the GO4. The attach the chains to 2 skimmer and have a tug of war.

Jay6722 wrote:

RHWoodman wrote:Zhaspahr Clyntahn should be executed. I am almost always opposed to the
death penalty for reasons too numerous (and too off-topic here) to
discuss presently. Clyntahn is one of the few exceptions I would make
to my general opposition to the death penalty. No torture prior to
exile, but a clear, firm, PUBLIC execution of the man.

As for
the others, I agree with Drak that Rhobair Duchairn should be given the
opportunity to clean up the mess he made. Trynair and Magwair should be
sent into permanent, impoverished exile, far away from any and all
civilization. I recommend exile to Armageddon Reef.

I see that you are all business with the group of four.

Jay, sorry, somehow I overlooked your reply.

I guess you could say that I'm all business with the Go4. Safehold is a fantasy world, but this particular topic does force one to think seriously about what one believes about evil and the people who do evil. Since Safehold exists only in DW's imagination (and ours by extension as readers), discussion of this weighty and serious topic is more safely held here than on Earth (if I may be allowed an atrocious play on words).

Anyway, I gave the matter some serious thought and decided that, my normal opposition to the death penalty just cannot stand up against someone so blatantly and thoroughly evil as Zhaspyr Clyntahn.

Alistair wrote:

Jth8s wrote:Personally I am in favor of an execution, plain and simple. I believe that a lifetime of evil cannot be redeemed by "finding god" in the last few days/years. That's a theological discussion so maybe I shouldn't mention it.

I quite agree Jth8s that just because a person (supposedly) finds God doesn't mean that they should be let off at the last minute. Indeed If they really have found God (I didn't know he was missing) they will WANT to face consequences for their actions- that's called personal responsibility.

But it should also be noted that the composer of the Christian Hymn "amazing grace" was a mass murder and Rapist.

Before he came a Christian he worked on slave ships where he killed thousands of Africans.

(Which at the time was legal)

In my view he was redeemed by an "Amazing Grace" which is why it is called Grace because it is not deserved or merited.

Alistair, I believe in the possibility of redemption for all men and women through the grace of the Almighty. Having said that, I would note that it is neither loving nor just to allow someone to escape justly deserved punishment for evil.

When my children were young and did wrong, I forgave them, but because I loved them I disciplined them, sometimes in ways they considered harsh because their deeds called for it. In no way did the justice of my punishment counter the grace of my forgiveness. The two complemented each other.

The same is true of adults who commit evil. They can be offered the grace of forgiveness and yet at the same time be given the punishment they justly deserve. Grace may temper the severity or extent of the punishment, but if punishment is removed altogether on account of "grace", then justice is offended.

I have said in other posts that I generally oppose the death penalty. I think that grace can be extended to an offender, allowing him or her to live, without offending justice by offering other punishments, such as life in prison without the possibility of parole. As I said in a previous post, though, having thought about what I would do with a real-life Zhaspyr Clyntahn, I have concluded that any punishment less than death would offend justice, even if he managed to "find God" in the end.

Your thoughts?

RHWoodman wrote:

Alistair wrote:

Jth8s wrote:Personally I am in favor of an execution, plain and simple. I believe that a lifetime of evil cannot be redeemed by "finding god" in the last few days/years. That's a theological discussion so maybe I shouldn't mention it.

I quite agree Jth8s that just because a person (supposedly) finds God doesn't mean that they should be let off at the last minute. Indeed If they really have found God (I didn't know he was missing) they will WANT to face consequences for their actions- that's called personal responsibility.

But it should also be noted that the composer of the Christian Hymn "amazing grace" was a mass murder and Rapist.

Before he came a Christian he worked on slave ships where he killed thousands of Africans.

(Which at the time was legal)

In my view he was redeemed by an "Amazing Grace" which is why it is called Grace because it is not deserved or merited.

Alistair, I believe in the possibility of redemption for all men and women through the grace of the Almighty. Having said that, I would note that it is neither loving nor just to allow someone to escape justly deserved punishment for evil.

When my children were young and did wrong, I forgave them, but because I loved them I disciplined them, sometimes in ways they considered harsh because their deeds called for it. In no way did the justice of my punishment counter the grace of my forgiveness. The two complemented each other.

The same is true of adults who commit evil. They can be offered the grace of forgiveness and yet at the same time be given the punishment they justly deserve. Grace may temper the severity or extent of the punishment, but if punishment is removed altogether on account of "grace", then justice is offended.

I have said in other posts that I generally oppose the death penalty. I think that grace can be extended to an offender, allowing him or her to live, without offending justice by offering other punishments, such as life in prison without the possibility of parole. As I said in a previous post, though, having thought about what I would do with a real-life Zhaspyr Clyntahn, I have concluded that any punishment less than death would offend justice, even if he managed to "find God" in the end.

Your thoughts?

I do not believe that the state should have to pay for keeping criminals alive in prison. If someone murders or rapes I believe they should be killed to prevent them from ever doing it again.

I just finished reading all the Safehold novels and am fairly in love with the series along with the Honorverse as my top 2 favorite DW series.

That being said, I think that it is highly doubtful that the Go4 would allow themselves to be captured. I think they would fear the repercussions of their actions too heavily and they don't have the moral courage (aside from Duchairn) to face themselves and their crimes.

Take for your example many of the Nazi officials besides Hitler that killed themselves. They knew they were going to be publicly tried, so they killed themselves first.

With that being said, I think that Duchairn is definitely becoming more and more of an sympathetic character. If he devoted the rest of his life to trying to make amends and penance as well as supporting Merlin, I don't see why that wouldn't be possible if unlikely for the following reasons:

Unfortunately because Merlin has 0 intel on the Go4 cause he can't get into the Temple, he has to assume that all 4 of them are corrupt and evil, and he won't see Duchairn trying in his own way to make amends. In fact, it's been said the Go4 don't venture outside the Temple much if at all, which is why Merlin mentioned it would be hard to assassinate one. But because Duchairn is trying to start feeding the homeless and giving them shelter, he might personally start venturing outside the Temple and then Merlin might end up killing him on one of those runs which would be severely depressing ;p

In any case, if anyone is opposed to Duchairn trying to redeem himself, I'd advise you to look up Oskar Schindler and see what he did during WW2. It doesn't make up for the overall abuses, but it says a lot that one man is willing to change because he sees the true nature of those around him.

Willz wrote:I just finished reading all the Safehold novels and am fairly in love with the series along with the Honorverse as my top 2 favorite DW series.

That being said, I think that it is highly doubtful that the Go4 would allow themselves to be captured. I think they would fear the repercussions of their actions too heavily and they don't have the moral courage (aside from Duchairn) to face themselves and their crimes.

Take for your example many of the Nazi officials besides Hitler that killed themselves. They knew they were going to be publicly tried, so they killed themselves first.

With that being said, I think that Duchairn is definitely becoming more and more of an sympathetic character. If he devoted the rest of his life to trying to make amends and penance as well as supporting Merlin, I don't see why that wouldn't be possible if unlikely for the following reasons:

Unfortunately because Merlin has 0 intel on the Go4 cause he can't get into the Temple, he has to assume that all 4 of them are corrupt and evil, and he won't see Duchairn trying in his own way to make amends. In fact, it's been said the Go4 don't venture outside the Temple much if at all, which is why Merlin mentioned it would be hard to assassinate one. But because Duchairn is trying to start feeding the homeless and giving them shelter, he might personally start venturing outside the Temple and then Merlin might end up killing him on one of those runs which would be severely depressing ;p

...snip...

I think Merlin is not very likely to kill Duchairn. Just because too many other characters have shown that they know about things that happen inside the Temple. Phonda and others. Only person that Merlin has said he wants to go after is Clyntahn. Plus what is in all those chests that has been sent to Charis if not evidence of people who may and may not be guilty of significant crimes for years.

T2M