Titles and ranks of Safehold

First of all, I would like to thank Mr. Weber for creating those marvelous series. I wish Mr. Weber and his family the best of everything.

As I was rereading the books, I have noticed a little thing - despite the lack of any cultural connection between Old Earth and Safehold, the titles on the two planets are virtually identical. While the fact that Safehold, being stuck in a high medieval stasis has a similar feudal structure is perfectly reasonable, why do they have "barons" and "earls"? When some of the early Safeholdian life was shown in the first chapter of OAR, the only title present there was "mayor". So how did they come to use the same terminology? Even if the feudal ranks can be explained by the Archangels' social manipulation, where did Siddarmark came with the word "republic"? I think's it's extremely unlikely that the Archangels, with their obsession of discouraging any type of social and technological progress, preserved information of republicanism for Siddarmarkian founding fathers to draw inspiration from.

I tried to search the forums to check if this question was asked before, but I couldn't find it. If it was, I will appreciate a link. Thank you.

JustAGuy wrote:First of all, I would like to thank Mr. Weber for creating those marvelous series. I wish Mr. Weber and his family the best of everything.

As I was rereading the books, I have noticed a little thing - despite the lack of any cultural connection between Old Earth and Safehold, the titles on the two planets are virtually identical. While the fact that Safehold, being stuck in a high medieval stasis has a similar feudal structure is perfectly reasonable, why do they have "barons" and "earls"? When some of the early Safeholdian life was shown in the first chapter of OAR, the only title present there was "mayor". So how did they come to use the same terminology? Even if the feudal ranks can be explained by the Archangels' social manipulation, where did Siddarmark came with the word "republic"? I think's it's extremely unlikely that the Archangels, with their obsession of discouraging any type of social and technological progress, preserved information of republicanism for Siddarmarkian founding fathers to draw inspiration from.

I tried to search the forums to check if this question was asked before, but I couldn't find it. If it was, I will appreciate a link. Thank you.

It could be the result of some kind of meddling, but I have generally assumed that RFC is simply using a translation convention - ie the actual terminology for many things the safeholdians themselves came up with after the archangels disappeared have their own names which we wouldn't recognise and Weber just uses the closest english word for that term. Authors (generally in the fantasy genre) who make up lots of new words to desribe things we which we already have in english (from food to titles to geographical features) simply to lend 'authenticity' to their world creation tend to get on my nerves.

Remember that some archangels survived the war and the nuke of kau yung, who is to say that those archangels did not reveal the info about kingdoms, as a way that safeholdians could organize into groups of villages, and form actual nations, remember that most probably some of the most critical people for the plan were obliterated with the nuke, so the ones remaining woulnd't know if revealing those little pieces of info from earth medieval period would cause bad consequences to bedard and langhorne plans.

Hi JustAGuy

Welcome to the forums !!

I do not remember your question regarding Safeholdian titles but IMO, it's a very valid question !!

Once again, Welcome -- and enjoy !!

R

JustAGuy wrote:First of all, I would like to thank Mr. Weber for creating those marvelous series. I wish Mr. Weber and his family the best of everything.

As I was rereading the books, I have noticed a little thing - despite the lack of any cultural connection between Old Earth and Safehold, the titles on the two planets are virtually identical. While the fact that Safehold, being stuck in a high medieval stasis has a similar feudal structure is perfectly reasonable, why do they have "barons" and "earls"? When some of the early Safeholdian life was shown in the first chapter of OAR, the only title present there was "mayor". So how did they come to use the same terminology? Even if the feudal ranks can be explained by the Archangels' social manipulation, where did Siddarmark came with the word "republic"? I think's it's extremely unlikely that the Archangels, with their obsession of discouraging any type of social and technological progress, preserved information of republicanism for Siddarmarkian founding fathers to draw inspiration from.

I tried to search the forums to check if this question was asked before, but I couldn't find it. If it was, I will appreciate a link. Thank you.

JimHacker wrote:
It could be the result of some kind of meddling, but I have generally assumed that RFC is simply using a translation convention

After all the trouble RFC went through changing the names of Safeholdians into something truly unpronounceable (at least for a non-native English speaker like myself) I don't think it is likely that he would just brush off another opportunity to show Safehold's difference from Earth and give it more depth.

Charles83 wrote:who is to say that those archangels did not reveal the info about kingdoms

Yes, it is a possible explanation. However, the Siddarmark problem still stands - I just cannot imagine Chihiro, or some another member of Langhorne's party who survived the War Against the Fallen, teaching the people of Safehold the meanings of the words "constitution" and "republic".

kbus888 wrote:Welcome to the forums !!

Thank you.

Besides the archangels they're were the re-educated Adams and Eves. So the terminology could have came from anywhere.

Hi Rod

I agree !!

I believe the terminology DID come from re-educated Adams and Eves -- and that's why I'm looking forward to reading about other brotherhoods in some of the mainland realms.

Of course, only RFC knows for sure !!

R
.

Rod wrote:Besides the archangels they're were the re-educated Adams and Eves. So the terminology could have came from anywhere.

They might have had the words in the safeholdian bible if its based on the current bible, which calls heaven the kingdom of god and such....

JustAGuy wrote:

JimHacker wrote:
It could be the result of some kind of meddling, but I have generally assumed that RFC is simply using a translation convention

After all the trouble RFC went through changing the names of Safeholdians into something truly unpronounceable (at least for a non-native English speaker like myself) I don't think it is likely that he would just brush off another opportunity to show Safehold's difference from Earth and give it more depth.

Charles83 wrote:who is to say that those archangels did not reveal the info about kingdoms

Yes, it is a possible explanation. However, the Siddarmark problem still stands - I just cannot imagine Chihiro, or some another member of Langhorne's party who survived the War Against the Fallen, teaching the people of Safehold the meanings of the words "constitution" and "republic".

kbus888 wrote:Welcome to the forums !!

Thank you.

We don't know about siddarmark, we dont know if siddarmark was founded as a republic or if it was a kingdom and some secret society (read the 208 missing adams and eves) decided to meddle and so the kingdom of siddarmark became the republic of siddarmark.

Hi SpaceKiwi,

Excellent point!

While kings and kingdoms are certainly mentioned in the bible, could Chirhiro have inadvertently included such language in his scriptures?

Could the terms have been left in the language memory of the reprogrammed Adams and Eves?

Personally I agree that RFC decided to use terms we were already familiar with, because he feels the same way about such tricks in the fantasy genre, or Sharon found the terms too confusing.

L

Spacekiwi wrote:They might have had the words in the safeholdian bible if its based on the current bible, which calls heaven the kingdom of god and such....