Guns, Guns Guns

pokermind wrote:Hi Donnachaidh & Spacekiwi

I remember when the Feds came into my state and committed murder, remember the Randy Weaver case under the Clinton Administration? Texans remember the burning out of the Branch Davidians. Many have died in the military style assault tactics that have become the norm rather than the exception, so it's not paranoia when the fear of the government is justified.

Poker

Nope. sorry. either before my time or when i was under 10.

Hi Donnachaidh & Spacekiwi

I remember when the Feds came into my state and committed murder, remember the Randy Weaver case under the Clinton Administration? Texans remember the burning out of the Branch Davidians. Many have died in the military style assault tactics that have become the norm rather than the exception, so it's not paranoia when the fear of the government is justified.

Poker


Nope. sorry. either before my time or when i was under 10.

I remember that. In the case of Randy Weaver, it was the classic agent provocateur set up. However, since Weaver was retired special forces (as well as a bit of a paranoid nut), it came back to bite them since he had both the motivation and the skills to fight back. In the jury trial afterwards, Weaver was acquitted of anything serious and given a slap on the wrist. The government wound up paying millions in civil penalties to the Weaver family.

pokermind wrote:Hi Donnachaidh & Spacekiwi

I remember when the Feds came into my state and committed murder, remember the Randy Weaver case under the Clinton Administration? Texans remember the burning out of the Branch Davidians. Many have died in the military style assault tactics that have become the norm rather than the exception, so it's not paranoia when the fear of the government is justified.

Poker

Well, Poker, let's review some history shall we?
Monroe, North Carolina, 1957

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBPrintItem.asp?ID=2960

Snip from article
Williams, a former Marine who volunteered to lead the Monroe chapter of the NAACP and founded a 60-member, NRA-chartered rifle club, described the battle in his 1962 book, "Negroes With Guns," which was reprinted in 1998 by Wayne State University Press.

According to Williams, the Monroe group owed its survival in the face of vicious violence to the fact that they were armed. In several cases, police officials who normally ignored or encouraged Klan violence took steps to prevent whites from attacking armed blacks. In other cases, fanatical racists suddenly turned into cowards when they realized their intended victims were armed.

End snip

Gun control acticists should remember what true jackbooted thugs are like and that guns in the hands the citizenry protects us from extremes from ALL manner of government over reach. It was the presence of armed citizens that encouraged the police to actually stop aiding the Klan and begin to do their jobs.

Thank God something finally caused an erosion of entrenched racism, even in State & Local Governments.

Poker

PeterZ wrote:

pokermind wrote:Hi Donnachaidh & Spacekiwi

I remember when the Feds came into my state and committed murder, remember the Randy Weaver case under the Clinton Administration? Texans remember the burning out of the Branch Davidians. Many have died in the military style assault tactics that have become the norm rather than the exception, so it's not paranoia when the fear of the government is justified.

Poker

Well, Poker, let's review some history shall we?
Monroe, North Carolina, 1957

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBPrintItem.asp?ID=2960

Snip from article
Williams, a former Marine who volunteered to lead the Monroe chapter of the NAACP and founded a 60-member, NRA-chartered rifle club, described the battle in his 1962 book, "Negroes With Guns," which was reprinted in 1998 by Wayne State University Press.

According to Williams, the Monroe group owed its survival in the face of vicious violence to the fact that they were armed. In several cases, police officials who normally ignored or encouraged Klan violence took steps to prevent whites from attacking armed blacks. In other cases, fanatical racists suddenly turned into cowards when they realized their intended victims were armed.

End snip

Gun control acticists should remember what true jackbooted thugs are like and that guns in the hands the citizenry protects us from extremes from ALL manner of government over reach. It was the presence of armed citizens that encouraged the police to actually stop aiding the Klan and begin to do their jobs.

Yup. I am a firm believer that gun control is racist. It was racist when the NRA wanted to limit the Black Panther Party's access to guns, it was racist after the civil war to prevent ex-slaves from defending against the KKK and it is racist in Chicago now when the victims of their outrageous murder rate are predominantly black. I mention Chicago because theirs is one of the strictest gun control laws in the country.

That seem to be a consitent theme accross this country. Where there are strict gun control laws, blacks are being killed by criminals in disproportionate numbers.

EDIT:Typos

pokermind wrote:Thank God something finally caused an erosion of entrenched racism, even in State & Local Governments.

Poker

Odd the progressives when in charge seem to entrench rather than lift up the poor down trodden minorities by making hopelessness a tolerable condition. The ghost of the fictional Simon LaGree from Uncle Tom's Cabin would be proud of his progressive sucessors.



Poker

I admit to a little ambiguity regarding gun control.....
I have good arguments for both sides.

Battle of Athens: A local political machine trying to hold onto power willing to use "enforcers" to explain to variouos individuals they don't need to vote. Usually in uniform and wearing law badges, they stood at the entrance to the polling place and intimidated unwelcome voters. The other side suspplied their own "welcomers" who stood toe to toe with the political machine reps, both with side arms holstered. After the polls closed the opposition chased the political machine goons to the jail with half the ballot boxes, besieged it with dynamite and gunfire, then forced them to surrender the ballot boxes (the wife of one goon in the jail called him and told him to get his butt home, now!) which were then counted right then and there.

Confirmation includes CBS radio archives as their local afiliate was across the street from the jail, coverage went out live coast to coast. This was in 1948. Wikipedia says 1946, all other sources I've seen said 1948. 1946 elections were more violent but went machine's way.

The flip side is based on those lovely statistics that evaporate the closer you look.

Roughly half of all gun violence victims are either standing near the intended target or victims of accidents. Consistent standards in skills and ethics of gun posession could reduce this. I would cheerfully endorse the NRA certification program standards as standards for gun posession. Please note I am not saying gun ownership.

When I wanted to get my first hunting license, I had to pass a firearms safety course. This was in spite of the fact that I was a member of a competition shooting club. Classes were every night for two weeks, two hours a night. To pass the class you had to demonstrate with a live weapon to the instructor that you understood firearms safety. Only after the instructor was satisfied that you could safely handle a loaded weapon were you allowed to take the written test. To get a license, you had to pass both parts. Fail either part and you had to take the entire class over again.

Too few people in too few places still hold to this kind of standard. That kind of standard for the purchase of a gun could cut down on the number of accidental deaths every year.

Maybe gun licenses should be like drivers licenses...


Down here we have a 3 step license program to get your license.
first you have to pass a 35 question safty test on the rules and regulations. You are allowed 2 wrong, before you auto fail. then you have to spend 6 months supervised the whole time you are driving around by someone who has had their full for at least 3 years and is over 20. then you have a hour long practical in a high stress area, and 3 minor or 1 major mistake is a fail. this leaves you at the second level,called restricted where you have two choices: wait the whole time (18 months) and try the second practical, which is longer and harder then the first pract, or take a defensive skills course, and wait a year.


something similar could be done with gun ownership surely? So level 1's might only be allowed firing privileges on ranges, level 2's supervised outside firing, level 3 full control, no restrictions.


that work for people?

Spacekiwi wrote:Maybe gun licenses should be like drivers licenses...


Down here we have a 3 step license program to get your license.
first you have to pass a 35 question safty test on the rules and regulations. You are allowed 2 wrong, before you auto fail. then you have to spend 6 months supervised the whole time you are driving around by someone who has had their full for at least 3 years and is over 20. then you have a hour long practical in a high stress area, and 3 minor or 1 major mistake is a fail. this leaves you at the second level,called restricted where you have two choices: wait the whole time (18 months) and try the second practical, which is longer and harder then the first pract, or take a defensive skills course, and wait a year.


something similar could be done with gun ownership surely? So level 1's might only be allowed firing privileges on ranges, level 2's supervised outside firing, level 3 full control, no restrictions.

that work for people?

Liscence to hunt in relatively populated areas like Illinois and Wisconsin or to carry concealed weapons, perhaps such a strict testing system would work. The Second Ammendment is pretty clear about the right to bear arms not being infringed upon.

So, to a large extent whether people agree on limitations is moot. The right to bear arms is a civil right. Many of us here believe that it is better to grant new rights than to take existing ones away. Once our liberties begin to be stripped, it becomes difficult to stop and impossible to reverse.