China and its expansionism

No, Relax, the next expansion-attempt of China is
into the South China Sea, and its islands.
They have already begun it.

HTM

Relax wrote:[snip - htm]
Next territorial expansion of China will be Burma if you guys are paying attention.
[snip - htm]

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:No, Relax, the next expansion-attempt of China is
into the South China Sea, and its islands.
They have already begun it.

HTM

Relax wrote:[snip - htm]
Next territorial expansion of China will be Burma if you guys are paying attention.
[snip - htm]

Isn't that already fait-acompli? From my very limited reading of the news is that neither Philippines nor Vietnam have any navy and cannot patrol those waters. After all presence is 9/10ths of the law of possession. There is no way the USA is going to step in when neither the Philippines nor the Vietnamese like us all that much, one for real reasons, the other for corruption. Though if the USA allows this blatant violation of the SEA treaty(China signed) then the entire SEA treaty goes right down the drain. Not a bad option, especially if one starts reading into said treaty and some if more nefarious implications.

Lets just hope China's expansionist new government doesn't lead to WWIII. Lets see, USA's build down of military forces(It will happen no if and's or but's about it), China's build up of forces reminds me rather starkly of pre WWII. We will see in another 10 years. China likewise as all the industrial muscle needed to bury any opponent. Don't think they will move till they China can at least prove to istelf that it can build quality naval ships. As soon as this happens, watch out as China currently and for the next 20-30 years will lead the world in Merchant Marine building. Baring a leap forward in ship building practices away from Steel that is.

Taiwan, Burma(Myanmar: Why on earth did they change the name to something longer?), S. China sea, maybe China simply decides to take over N. Korea along with these other "territories", though Taiwan will be a tough nut to crack. China already has millions of people in Africa Rift Valley region for minerals/farming. This would lead one to contemplate that China would rather swallow Burma whole allowing access to the Indian Ocean without having to run the gauntlet via Singapore, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia or via Pakistan. China has already effectively taken over the farming of Uzbekistan/Krygistan/Tazikstan. Erm, one of those stan's I have wrong. Forget which one and am too lazy too look it up on a map.

That expansion attempt, isn't an attempt at all. Its a slam dunk done deal. The USA surely will not try to stop them. If we won't. No one else will either.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:No, Relax, the next expansion-attempt of China is
into the South China Sea, and its islands.
They have already begun it.

HTM

Relax wrote:[snip - htm]
Next territorial expansion of China will be Burma if you guys are paying attention.
[snip - htm]

wastedfly wrote:

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:No, Relax, the next expansion-attempt of China is
into the South China Sea, and its islands.
They have already begun it.

HTM

Isn't that already fait-acompli? From my very limited reading of the news is that neither Philippines nor Vietnam have any navy and cannot patrol those waters. After all presence is 9/10ths of the law of possession. There is no way the USA is going to step in when neither the Philippines nor the Vietnamese like us all that much, one for real reasons, the other for corruption. Though if the USA allows this blatant violation of the SEA treaty(China signed) then the entire SEA treaty goes right down the drain. Not a bad option, especially if one starts reading into said treaty and some if more nefarious implications.

Lets just hope China's expansionist new government doesn't lead to WWIII. Lets see, USA's build down of military forces(It will happen no if and's or but's about it), China's build up of forces reminds me rather starkly of pre WWII. We will see in another 10 years. China likewise as all the industrial muscle needed to bury any opponent. Don't think they will move till they China can at least prove to istelf that it can build quality naval ships. As soon as this happens, watch out as China currently and for the next 20-30 years will lead the world in Merchant Marine building. Baring a leap forward in ship building practices away from Steel that is.

Taiwan, Burma(Myanmar: Why on earth did they change the name to something longer?), S. China sea, maybe China simply decides to take over N. Korea along with these other "territories", though Taiwan will be a tough nut to crack. China already has millions of people in Africa Rift Valley region for minerals/farming. This would lead one to contemplate that China would rather swallow Burma whole allowing access to the Indian Ocean without having to run the gauntlet via Singapore, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia or via Pakistan. China has already effectively taken over the farming of Uzbekistan/Krygistan/Tazikstan. Erm, one of those stan's I have wrong. Forget which one and am too lazy too look it up on a map.

Thanks to thermonuclear weapons, there is absolutely no similarity with World War II and lead up. And to take the thread back on topic, the equivalent of thermonuclear weapons in the Honorverse would be Foraker and Hemphill to announce they have invented a new weapon. It causes the target star to go nova immediately. It has an effective range of 1000 light years.

For some reason, I do not anticipate the God-Author will introduce such a weapon.

true, anyone with nucs is ok. Anyone without gets run over.

they do have a sort of counterbalance with japan however. if they do something that the japanese believe is a threat...... that may pull the USA and other Japanese allies into the conflict. Also, this may turn out like the japanese 'world domination scenario' of the 90's. are we ruled by the japanese yet?

wastedfly wrote:Isn't that already fait-acompli? From my very limited reading of the news is that neither Philippines nor Vietnam have any navy and cannot patrol those waters. After all presence is 9/10ths of the law of possession. There is no way the USA is going to step in when neither the Philippines nor the Vietnamese like us all that much, one for real reasons, the other for corruption. Though if the USA allows this blatant violation of the SEA treaty(China signed) then the entire SEA treaty goes right down the drain. Not a bad option, especially if one starts reading into said treaty and some if more nefarious implications.

Lets just hope China's expansionist new government doesn't lead to WWIII. Lets see, USA's build down of military forces(It will happen no if and's or but's about it), China's build up of forces reminds me rather starkly of pre WWII. We will see in another 10 years. China likewise as all the industrial muscle needed to bury any opponent. Don't think they will move till they China can at least prove to istelf that it can build quality naval ships. As soon as this happens, watch out as China currently and for the next 20-30 years will lead the world in Merchant Marine building. Baring a leap forward in ship building practices away from Steel that is.

Taiwan, Burma(Myanmar: Why on earth did they change the name to something longer?), S. China sea, maybe China simply decides to take over N. Korea along with these other "territories", though Taiwan will be a tough nut to crack. China already has millions of people in Africa Rift Valley region for minerals/farming. This would lead one to contemplate that China would rather swallow Burma whole allowing access to the Indian Ocean without having to run the gauntlet via Singapore, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia or via Pakistan. China has already effectively taken over the farming of Uzbekistan/Krygistan/Tazikstan. Erm, one of those stan's I have wrong. Forget which one and am too lazy too look it up on a map.

As far as I can tell, China is expanding in six directions simultaneously.

Taiwan/South China Sea. Prior territorial claims and resources.

Vietnam/Annam. Prior Territorial claims, real estate, old grievances and response to anti-han ethnic cleansing by current government.

Mekong basin. Resources, real estate and geographic position (port and infrastructure access to regional rivals).

Himalya/Kashmir/possible northern Indus Valley. Resources, real estate and geopgraphic position. China already posesses 15% of Kashmir, if India and Pakistan continue fighting over it, China's percentage could easily grow.

Tarim Basin/Central Asia. Prior Territorial claim, real estate, resources and geographic position.

Russian Far East. Prior Territorial claim, real estate, resources and geographic position.

With exception of Vietnam/Annam axis Han populations have already moved into the areas in large numbers. In Russian Far East there are already more Han than Slavs in eight Oblast nearest China. In Irkutsk Oblast, Han are already the largest non-indigenous population.

China's population is growing too fast for China to hold, real estate for people to live on/farm is needed.

Prior territorial claims only require valid prior posession sometime in the last 2500 years, and the Chinese Government understands that exercising such claims depends on levels of strength sufficient to do so. They currently have that strength.

If the chinese people are to have a standard of living of that in Europe much less that of the USA they will require a consumable resource base larger than currently available on earth.

For China to have access to real estate expansion and growing resource base they need to geographically position themselves for that access and to curtail that access for potential rivals.

Of course, all of this will bring China into conflict with most of the world at one time or another....

Yes, and the main problem being, like Germany before WWII, China is starting to make all the same noises about protecting the HAN people weather said people want said Chinese governing or not and ancient territory conquests or possessions.

At least the Russians are figuring it out with their revamping of their nuclear forces. Time for Japan to change its constitution allowing it to create offensive weapons. Since we never actively garrisoned Japan after WWII, shoving that proviso down Japan's throat was a good option as it allowed our troops for the most part to stay confined to a couple bases or stay at home. Resulting in we weren't percieved as an occupying force who were out to take their land. Okinawa doesn't count as Okinawa was officially, still is actually, its own independent, to some extent governing body. The Okinawans wanted us there after WWII. What forces were in Japan were there to make sure chaos didn't break out while Japan new fledgling governement didn't implode. (Why Iraq was such a travesty as we let the idiots write their own constitution instead of shoving one giving civil liberties and rights to all the people of Iraq instead of essentially Sharia law.)

The end result of this policy was allowing the Japanese people to move away from the Bushido code as a governing creed without creating massive hostility.

Not forcing Japan to apologize(lose face) to Korea/Philippines/China was a big mistake. One of the main reason S. Korea still doesn't like Japan much. All it would have taken were a few words and very minimal deeds to start the healing process. Instead S. Korean's can still wave the bloody flag and be justified due to Japan's colonial rule. Actually, Japan's colonial rule, short as it was, did help Korea weather they want to admit it or not as the Japanese started the reforms bringing Korea kicking and screaming into the modern age, where, there was this thing called schooling, and science for the masses instead of mumbo jumbo superstition.

kenl511 wrote:

wastedfly wrote:Isn't that already fait-acompli? From my very limited reading of the news is that neither Philippines nor Vietnam have any navy and cannot patrol those waters. After all presence is 9/10ths of the law of possession. There is no way the USA is going to step in when neither the Philippines nor the Vietnamese like us all that much, one for real reasons, the other for corruption. Though if the USA allows this blatant violation of the SEA treaty(China signed) then the entire SEA treaty goes right down the drain. Not a bad option, especially if one starts reading into said treaty and some if more nefarious implications.

Lets just hope China's expansionist new government doesn't lead to WWIII. Lets see, USA's build down of military forces(It will happen no if and's or but's about it), China's build up of forces reminds me rather starkly of pre WWII. We will see in another 10 years. China likewise as all the industrial muscle needed to bury any opponent. Don't think they will move till they China can at least prove to istelf that it can build quality naval ships. As soon as this happens, watch out as China currently and for the next 20-30 years will lead the world in Merchant Marine building. Baring a leap forward in ship building practices away from Steel that is.

Taiwan, Burma(Myanmar: Why on earth did they change the name to something longer?), S. China sea, maybe China simply decides to take over N. Korea along with these other "territories", though Taiwan will be a tough nut to crack. China already has millions of people in Africa Rift Valley region for minerals/farming. This would lead one to contemplate that China would rather swallow Burma whole allowing access to the Indian Ocean without having to run the gauntlet via Singapore, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia or via Pakistan. China has already effectively taken over the farming of Uzbekistan/Krygistan/Tazikstan. Erm, one of those stan's I have wrong. Forget which one and am too lazy too look it up on a map.

As far as I can tell, China is expanding in six directions simultaneously.

Taiwan/South China Sea. Prior territorial claims and resources.

Vietnam/Annam. Prior Territorial claims, real estate, old grievances and response to anti-han ethnic cleansing by current government.

Mekong basin. Resources, real estate and geographic position (port and infrastructure access to regional rivals).

Himalya/Kashmir/possible northern Indus Valley. Resources, real estate and geopgraphic position. China already posesses 15% of Kashmir, if India and Pakistan continue fighting over it, China's percentage could easily grow.

Tarim Basin/Central Asia. Prior Territorial claim, real estate, resources and geographic position.

Russian Far East. Prior Territorial claim, real estate, resources and geographic position.

With exception of Vietnam/Annam axis Han populations have already moved into the areas in large numbers. In Russian Far East there are already more Han than Slavs in eight Oblast nearest China. In Irkutsk Oblast, Han are already the largest non-indigenous population.

China's population is growing too fast for China to hold, real estate for people to live on/farm is needed.

Prior territorial claims only require valid prior posession sometime in the last 2500 years, and the Chinese Government understands that exercising such claims depends on levels of strength sufficient to do so. They currently have that strength.

If the chinese people are to have a standard of living of that in Europe much less that of the USA they will require a consumable resource base larger than currently available on earth.

For China to have access to real estate expansion and growing resource base they need to geographically position themselves for that access and to curtail that access for potential rivals.

Of course, all of this will bring China into conflict with most of the world at one time or another....

Shouldn't the discussion about China's expansionism be in Free Range Topics?

JohnRoth wrote:Shouldn't the discussion about China's expansionism be in Free Range Topics?

In the politics sub-forum. I forsee this topic getting heated in very short order.