Guns, Guns Guns

In the US you must be 18 to purchase a long gun (eg rifle, shotgun) or ammunition for a long gun and 21 to purchase a handgun or ammunition for a handgun. When the caliber is for either then you must be 18 to purchase it "as long as it is for use in a rifle". The last part is almost unenforcable so it becomes if you're over 18 but under 21 you can buy rifle ammunition and .22 ammunition.

A background check is required by Federal law (Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993).

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics

Tenshinai wrote:That example was in fact taken from a US news report noting that in state X(which i missed which one it was unfortunately), you had to be 21 to get a beer, but 18 to buy a gun. Except it was not actually required to even show an ID for such a purchase. Buyers needed to fill in a short onepage form, without any checks for validity.
And it was the gun shop owner that did the talking in the report. Somehow i doubt that he would say he was doing something he wasn´t allowed to.

A quick check says my facts turn out to be just fine and proper. Standard legal drinking age in USA is 21 with a few exceptions, and multiple states allow gun purchases from less. So the only uncertain is which state(s) are lax in exact requirements about the age restriction.

RandomGraysuit wrote:Take a smoking hot jailbait-worthy 17 year old to a frat house.

See how easy it is for her to walk out with half a dozen beers on the basis of, "She's hot, sure!"

See how easy it is for her to get half a dozen guns using the same methods.

My sisters' repeated experiences say that one is much, much easier than the other.

I think it depends on the scenario. For example, a pimply 15 year old boy wouldn't do so well in the example you gave i suspect.

It depends a lot. On american friend of mine recently confessed to me that he kept his booze much more secure from his kids than his guns: he was worried about them abusing alcohol but not the guns because 'they knew enough to be safe'. I'm not criticiing him. I'm just saying that arguing whether booze or guns is more accessibleis a bit pointless as it is contextual.

Limiting guns won't prevent a Newtown type incident. Even if you were actually successful in getting every single gun out of civilian hands (good luck with that!), these mass killers would simply use some other type of weapon.

- Bombs - easy to understand instructions readily available on the internet.
- Poison gas - ditto (the catch here is not to poison yourself while making the stuff)
- Fire bombs
- Natural gas
- Knives - currently popular with similar nutcases in China
- Cars

Etc Etc

Guns used to be a lot more available years ago especially in places like Connecticut. What is the most different from then to now is the disintegration of the public mental health system and the rise of the internet/24hr news cycle. The mentally ill used to be warehoused in large public facilities. The conditions were not the best and available treatments were minimal but the advantages of that system were that they at least got food to eat, shelter from the weather and society was protected from the minority of dangerous mentally ill individuals. The system desperately needed reform but instead of improving conditions, treatment options and tightening the standards for commitment; society chose to make the problem go away by just closing the facilities. This resulted in mentally ill people being dumped on the streets to starve, live under bridges and completely failed to protect the rest of us from the minority which are genuinely dangerous. Combine this with an internet to give the disturbed lots of ideas and a 24hr news cycle to give them the recognition they desperately crave and it's a powder keg.

biochem wrote:Limiting guns won't prevent a Newtown type incident. Even if you were actually successful in getting every single gun out of civilian hands (good luck with that!), these mass killers would simply use some other type of weapon.

- Bombs - easy to understand instructions readily available on the internet.
- Poison gas - ditto (the catch here is not to poison yourself while making the stuff)
- Fire bombs
- Natural gas
- Knives - currently popular with similar nutcases in China
- Cars

Etc Etc

Guns used to be a lot more available years ago especially in places like Connecticut. What is the most different from then to now is the disintegration of the public mental health system and the rise of the internet/24hr news cycle. The mentally ill used to be warehoused in large public facilities. The conditions were not the best and available treatments were minimal but the advantages of that system were that they at least got food to eat, shelter from the weather and society was protected from the minority of dangerous mentally ill individuals. The system desperately needed reform but instead of improving conditions, treatment options and tightening the standards for commitment; society chose to make the problem go away by just closing the facilities. This resulted in mentally ill people being dumped on the streets to starve, live under bridges and completely failed to protect the rest of us from the minority which are genuinely dangerous. Combine this with an internet to give the disturbed lots of ideas and a 24hr news cycle to give them the recognition they desperately crave and it's a powder keg.

Agree with the bit about the mental health bit, and agree with the bit about them using other ways, with one caveat. if forced to use other ways, IMO there would be far less deaths and far less attempts to commit massacres, and this would drop even further if proper medical care was given to people with mental disorders.

I believe that there will be less incidents and less deaths due to one simple thing. complexity. guns are pick up and point and shoot things. you dont need to make them, they don't require any semi legal shopping, and they dont require much setup prior to use. Bombs require some knowledge of engineering and chemistry, and knives and cars are a lot harder to commit mass murder with, due to short range of knives, and the inability of cars to go places smaller then the cars width.

As well, regarding the mental bit, i read a statement somewhere the other day saying that around 40% of US kids were taking medication for mental problems. surely the US's mental health cant be that bad?

As well, regarding the mental bit, i read a statement somewhere the other day saying that around 40% of US kids were taking medication for mental problems. surely the US's mental health cant be that bad?

In the USA any doctor can prescribe psychiatric medications to any of their patients for any reason they deem fit. As a result Attention Deficit Disorder, mild Depression etc wind up being overtreated. However, there are few beds available for in-patient treatments and involuntary commitment is almost nonexistent. So while someone with mild depression may recognize the problem and go to their regular doctor for a prescription, someone who is severely mentally ill and is unable to recognize it has few resources available.

You don't even need modern weapons what do you think this:

half pounder would have done in a crowded classroom?

The problem is the weird cultural phenomena of taking others with you when you off yourself and end your life in infamy. At one time called going postal. As long as the media hypes these sickos there will be follow ups. Notice these sickos usually pick places where legal weapons are banned, airports, schools, etc. When guns are outlawed only the outlaws have guns. Or as one Bar Fly on Baen's Bar puts it Average response time of police is 15 minutes, .357 bullet travels at 1,500 ft per second (can't remember the number so I chose Mach 2).

Poker

biochem wrote:

As well, regarding the mental bit, i read a statement somewhere the other day saying that around 40% of US kids were taking medication for mental problems. surely the US's mental health cant be that bad?

In the USA any doctor can prescribe psychiatric medications to any of their patients for any reason they deem fit. As a result Attention Deficit Disorder, mild Depression etc wind up being overtreated. However, there are few beds available for in-patient treatments and involuntary commitment is almost nonexistent. So while someone with mild depression may recognize the problem and go to their regular doctor for a prescription, someone who is severely mentally ill and is unable to recognize it has few resources available.

The problem is the weird cultural phenomena of taking others with you when you off yourself and end your life in infamy. At one time called going postal. As long as the media hypes these sickos there will be follow ups. Notice these sickos usually pick places where legal weapons are banned, airports, schools, etc. When guns are outlawed only the outlaws have guns.

Sorry but i call that complete bullshit.

You want to know what place in the world has the most amount of people "going postal" is?
China. But you never hear about it because 1. it isn´t covered much in the media, and 2. because they rarely have access to firearms, victims usually survives.

The same was true the last time something like it happened here as well(about a decade ago now IIRC), the perpetrator only had a knife, so there were people injured, but noone died.
And gunlaws here are much closer to USA than China, except for the fact that laws on storage here is much harder. Which means that raiding a house for a gun is nonstarter unless you have the ability to break open a pretty sturdy gunlocker, and sometimes a second separate locker for ammo.

When guns are outlawed only the outlaws have guns. Or as one Bar Fly on Baen's Bar puts it Average response time of police is 15 minutes, .357 bullet travels at 1,500 ft per second (can't remember the number so I chose Mach 2).

And do tell, exactly how often does a private person actually managed to interrupt a "perp with a gun"?
Based on what i know, it is exceptionally rare.
And IIRC, in over 1/4 of the times that it DOES happen, innocent people gets shot, by accident by either side involved or because the private with a gun, misidentifies who is the "bad guy".

Unless you desire a society where flak jackets is the prevailing fashion, this is not a solution, or even a good idea for how to think about it.

And yes you were close with your guesstimate for a .357 V0, they range from 1200-1600 ft/s.
Your maths fail you however as that is nowhere near mach 2. ^_^

Tenshinai wrote:

The problem is the weird cultural phenomena of taking others with you when you off yourself and end your life in infamy. At one time called going postal. As long as the media hypes these sickos there will be follow ups. Notice these sickos usually pick places where legal weapons are banned, airports, schools, etc. When guns are outlawed only the outlaws have guns.

Sorry but i call that complete bullshit.

You want to know what place in the world has the most amount of people "going postal" is?
China. But you never hear about it because 1. it isn´t covered much in the media, and 2. because they rarely have access to firearms, victims usually survives.

The same was true the last time something like it happened here as well(about a decade ago now IIRC), the perpetrator only had a knife, so there were people injured, but noone died.
And gunlaws here are much closer to USA than China, except for the fact that laws on storage here is much harder. Which means that raiding a house for a gun is nonstarter unless you have the ability to break open a pretty sturdy gunlocker, and sometimes a second separate locker for ammo.

You think the fame (infamy) is not attractive to these losers? You consider that bullshit? I can only shake my head.

Yah, and if the Chinese perpetrator survives he is executed and the family sent a bill for the bullet as soon as they find buyers for the perpetrator's organs to sell to those buying an organ transplant. Sweet guys those Communists.

Did you see this in the four more years thread?

Daryl wrote:Just released survey results from the EIU.
Eleven criteria including - national wealth, life expectancy, crime rates, weather, family ties and political freedom to what today's newborns can hope to earn in 2030

BEST PLACES TO BE BORN

1 Switzerland
2 Australia
3 Norway
4 Sweden
5 Denmark
6 Singapore
7 New Zealand
8 Netherlands
9 Canada
10 Hong Kong
16 United States
27 Britain
34 Greece
66 India
80 Nigeria

IIRC All Swiss are required to be in the military and after active duty become militia with standard military rifle and ammunition stored in their homes. Switzerland has very few home invasions.

Tenshinai wrote:

When guns are outlawed only the outlaws have guns. Or as one Bar Fly on Baen's Bar puts it Average response time of police is 15 minutes, .357 bullet travels at 1,500 ft per second (can't remember the number so I chose Mach 2).

And do tell, exactly how often does a private person actually managed to interrupt a "perp with a gun"?
Based on what i know, it is exceptionally rare.
And IIRC, in over 1/4 of the times that it DOES happen, innocent people gets shot, by accident by either side involved or because the private with a gun, misidentifies who is the "bad guy".

Unless you desire a society where flak jackets is the prevailing fashion, this is not a solution, or even a good idea for how to think about it.

And yes you were close with your guesstimate for a .357 V0, they range from 1200-1600 ft/s.
Your maths fail you however as that is nowhere near mach 2. ^_^

As to the numbers of perpetrators deterred from committing crime it is unknowable, the number of justifiable homicides by private citizens is not a statistic reported by the media, nor are separate records kept to my knowledge. However there are statistics showing lowered crime rates in concealed carry states.

Oops forgot speed of sound was in MPH not FPS.

Poker

pokermind wrote:

Sorry but i call that complete bullshit.

You want to know what place in the world has the most amount of people "going postal" is?
China. But you never hear about it because 1. it isn´t covered much in the media, and 2. because they rarely have access to firearms, victims usually survives.

The same was true the last time something like it happened here as well(about a decade ago now IIRC), the perpetrator only had a knife, so there were people injured, but noone died.
And gunlaws here are much closer to USA than China, except for the fact that laws on storage here is much harder. Which means that raiding a house for a gun is nonstarter unless you have the ability to break open a pretty sturdy gunlocker, and sometimes a second separate locker for ammo.

You think the fame (infamy) is not attractive to these losers? You consider that bullshit? I can only shake my head.

Yah, and if the Chinese perpetrator survives he is executed and the family sent a bill for the bullet as soon as they find buyers for the perpetrator's organs to sell to those buying an organ transplant. Sweet guys those Communists.

Did you see this in the four more years thread?

Daryl wrote:Just released survey results from the EIU.
Eleven criteria including - national wealth, life expectancy, crime rates, weather, family ties and political freedom to what today's newborns can hope to earn in 2030

BEST PLACES TO BE BORN

1 Switzerland
2 Australia
3 Norway
4 Sweden
5 Denmark
6 Singapore
7 New Zealand
8 Netherlands
9 Canada
10 Hong Kong
16 United States
27 Britain
34 Greece
66 India
80 Nigeria

IIRC All Swiss are required to be in the military and after active duty become militia with standard military rifle and ammunition stored in their homes. Switzerland has very few home invasions.


And do tell, exactly how often does a private person actually managed to interrupt a "perp with a gun"?
Based on what i know, it is exceptionally rare.
And IIRC, in over 1/4 of the times that it DOES happen, innocent people gets shot, by accident by either side involved or because the private with a gun, misidentifies who is the "bad guy".

Unless you desire a society where flak jackets is the prevailing fashion, this is not a solution, or even a good idea for how to think about it.

And yes you were close with your guesstimate for a .357 V0, they range from 1200-1600 ft/s.
Your maths fail you however as that is nowhere near mach 2. ^_^

As to the numbers of perpetrators deterred from committing crime it is unknowable, the number of justifiable homicides by private citizens is not a statistic reported by the media, nor are separate records kept to my knowledge. However there are statistics showing lowered crime rates in concealed carry states.

Oops forgot speed of sound was in MPH not FPS.

Poker[/quote]


The fame is attractive to them, after all, brevik did what he did to get his worldview out into public.

And according to wikipedia quoting from something in a swiss newspaper, the swiss militia no longer keep ammo at home except for the swat teams and army quick reaction forces, and if ammo is bought, it must be fired on a gun range, so although there is a high gun ownership level, there is a next to zero ammo ownership for the military guns.

However, it is noted further down the page that in 2005 only 10% of households in Switzerland own handguns, and 29% contain guns, as opposed to 18 and 43% in the United States. Furthermore, there seem to be permits required for just about everything to do with the gun, all of which must be held and signed prior to buying and using guns and ammo, and the requirements are strict. for exampe, a civilian requires a permit to carry his gun in public.

considering their gun death rates are less then 1 per 100,000, the swiss seem to be going about it the right way.

You think the fame (infamy) is not attractive to these losers? You consider that bullshit? I can only shake my head.

Did I say that? Nope. I said that the part i quoted was BS. The notion that adding lots of guns to the public at large would somehow prevent such shootings from happening.

That "When guns are outlawed only the outlaws have guns." is BS.

That "Notice these sickos usually pick places where legal weapons are banned, airports, schools, etc."
is BS. These people choose targets because of where they can do damage. Wether civillians in the place have or haven´t got guns isn´t going to be much relevant.

Did you see this in the four more years thread?

Not until just now no.

IIRC All Swiss are required to be in the military and after active duty become militia with standard military rifle and ammunition stored in their homes. Switzerland has very few home invasions.

And you think those two trinkets of information has a direct connection? Sorry. Their rules for those guns are similar to what you found here for the home guard back in the 90s. If they use those weapons without VERY good cause against an intruder that is not both military and of a hostile nation, the penalties can get very bad.

As to the numbers of perpetrators deterred from committing crime it is unknowable

If you request an exact number, then yes that is utterly impossible to know.
However, by comparing different places, you quickly find that private gun ownership only has a minor deterrant effect. While making private gun ownership easy and common has a BIG effect on how easy it is for criminals to get weapons.

And if you forgot it again, i´m not a person who is against private gun ownership... It is making gun ownership frivolusly easy that i am VERY much against.

However there are statistics showing lowered crime rates in concealed carry states.

Unfortunately, that is only true as long as you compare without taking into account how those states "look".
I don´t recall which are which(i´m not THAT interested to keep such details in mind ), but from what i recall, most concealed carry states are places with demographical outlooks where you would expect those crime rates anyway.

Oops forgot speed of sound was in MPH not FPS.