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Four more years!

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Re: Four more years!
Post by Daryl   » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:28 am

Daryl
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After much thought on this topic I think I may have finally sorted out the difference in mind set between someone brought up in the US and someone brought up in an other Western democracy.
We (non US) equate the democratically elected government as legitimately representing the country, and would regard an armed assault on it as treason even if we strongly disagreed with its values.
The gun lobby of the US regards the US state as separate to the current government and reserves the right to use lethal force to change that government if it has very different values to theirs, even if it was freely elected in a democratic election. This is the basis of their constitutional right to bear arms, even if it originally referred to single shot muskets, not M16s.
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Re: Four more years!
Post by Spacekiwi   » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:42 am

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Daryl wrote:After much thought on this topic I think I may have finally sorted out the difference in mind set between someone brought up in the US and someone brought up in an other Western democracy.
We (non US) equate the democratically elected government as legitimately representing the country, and would regard an armed assault on it as treason even if we strongly disagreed with its values.
The gun lobby of the US regards the US state as separate to the current government and reserves the right to use lethal force to change that government if it has very different values to theirs, even if it was freely elected in a democratic election. This is the basis of their constitutional right to bear arms, even if it originally referred to single shot muskets, not M16s.




this article http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10854675 has a potential answer as to why the americans are unique in automatically considering the government seperate to the country about half way down. interestingly, its apparently due to getting democracy too early.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
its not paranoia if its justified...
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
its not paranoia if its justified... :D
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Re: Four more years!
Post by kbus888   » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:27 pm

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Posts: 1980
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:58 pm
Location: Eastern Canada

Hi Daryl

You commented in part
(Quote)
I have a number of guns, legally registered and safely stored, so am not anti gun as such. However one obscure item in the news reporting of this latest tragedy that stunned me was the report of how well the brave teachers implimented the rehearsed plan for evacuation of students in the event of such an atrocity happening. I'm willing to bet that no school in a normal suburb in countries such as the UK, New Zealand or Australia would have even considered the possible need for such a plan, let alone practiced it.
What sort of society sees the need to preplan how to cope with a gun attack in a junior school?
(EndQuote)

I'm a Canadian.

Some of my (admittedly non-expert) thoughts are:

1 -
The U.S.A. is very (and justly) proud of their history of fighting and armed revolt against a Colonial power to achieve American independence.

This, if I am correct, happened around 1776.

U.S. citizens are permitted and encouraged to own firearms.

2 -
Canada was also subject to Colonial ownership.

We did not take up arms to gain our independence.

Instead, we talked them into giving us our independence.

This happened first in 1867 and was finalized around 1982.
(A LOT longer than for the U.S.A.)

Although we COULD be labelled "wind-bags"
based on this history, we HAVE proven ourselves
capable of military action when called upon.

Canadian citizens owning firearms is not common.

3 -
I believe both countries can be classified as "civilized".

** -
Different strokes for different folks.

?? Comments ??

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Re: Four more years!
Post by RandomGraysuit   » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:50 pm

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Posts: 470
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Spacekiwi wrote:
thoughts?



My first thought is that it is unfortunate your father's experience and bravery has absolutely nothing to do with your knowledge on the subject, as shown by your post.

What is an 'assault rifle', or an 'assault weapon'? Are they the same thing? How often does a mass murderer 'spray and pray' with their gun? What is the difference between an automatic and semi-automatic firearm?

If we're going to talk about gun control, it would be good for everyone involved to be familiar with these basic concepts, so we know precisely what it is we wish to outlaw. Your post makes it clear you are not. This is precisely how laws that ban 'scary-looking semi-automatic assault weapons of mass destruction' and suchlike get made, and then either confuse the heck out of their supporters when they do nothing or get found unconstitutional and are struck down.

Some intro to guns definitions for you:

Automatic weapon: A weapon that fires more bullets as long as the trigger is held down. The M60 is an excellent example of this, as is the Uzi submachine gun, the M249, the Maxim, and Gatling machine gun. These weapons are incredibly restricted, and very hard to get in both time and money. They are practically never used in crimes because of how difficult they are to get, and because people who can get them tend to want to keep their records clean so they can *keep* playing with their toys.

Semi-automatic weapon: A weapon that fires one bullet every time the trigger is pulled. Most pistols are like this. Many rifles are like this too, including many hunting rifles. This is a basic standard for many modern firearms.

Revolver: The other kind of pistol. You usually get 6 shots, and it functions (to the end user) much like a semi-automatic pistol, although the inner workings are very different. When you want to reload, there are special devices to help you add rounds to the 6 chambers very quickly, but they need practice to use well.

Bolt-action: The other kind of rifle in common use. You fire one shot, you rack the bolt back and complete the firing cycle, to include loading a new round. You can then fire another shot. This is often considered more accurate than a semi-automatic weapon and capable of fire at longer ranges, but other factors can easily compensate for the difference most of the time.

Assault rifle: Used to denote a rifle with an intermediate cartridge (between the size of a battle rifle/large caliber hunting rifle and a pistol), a detachable magazine, and selectable fire that includes burst or automatic modes. These are another category of weapon that is almost impossible to get. You can get civilianized versions, which force the weapon to become semi-automatic only. Range on these is usually middling at best because of the round used, and accuracy is nothing to write home about. But they tend to be relatively light for a rifle and comfortable to use.

Assault weapon: It looks scary. No, really, that's about it. The requirements vary by whatever law is being used. The 1994 ban included bayonet mounts as part of the requirements to be considered an assault weapon. I'm not sure of any gun-related stabbing crimes in the last 50 years, but those were banned regardless.

If we can agree on those definitions, maybe we could have a discussion on the topic?
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Re: Four more years!
Post by Spacekiwi   » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:44 pm

Spacekiwi
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Posts: 2634
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:08 am
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RandomGraysuit wrote:
My first thought is that it is unfortunate your father's experience and bravery has absolutely nothing to do with your knowledge on the subject, as shown by your post.

What is an 'assault rifle', or an 'assault weapon'? Are they the same thing? How often does a mass murderer 'spray and pray' with their gun? What is the difference between an automatic and semi-automatic firearm?

If we're going to talk about gun control, it would be good for everyone involved to be familiar with these basic concepts, so we know precisely what it is we wish to outlaw. Your post makes it clear you are not. This is precisely how laws that ban 'scary-looking semi-automatic assault weapons of mass destruction' and suchlike get made, and then either confuse the heck out of their supporters when they do nothing or get found unconstitutional and are struck down.

Some intro to guns definitions for you:

Automatic weapon: A weapon that fires more bullets as long as the trigger is held down. The M60 is an excellent example of this, as is the Uzi submachine gun, the M249, the Maxim, and Gatling machine gun. These weapons are incredibly restricted, and very hard to get in both time and money. They are practically never used in crimes because of how difficult they are to get, and because people who can get them tend to want to keep their records clean so they can *keep* playing with their toys.

Semi-automatic weapon: A weapon that fires one bullet every time the trigger is pulled. Most pistols are like this. Many rifles are like this too, including many hunting rifles. This is a basic standard for many modern firearms.

Revolver: The other kind of pistol. You usually get 6 shots, and it functions (to the end user) much like a semi-automatic pistol, although the inner workings are very different. When you want to reload, there are special devices to help you add rounds to the 6 chambers very quickly, but they need practice to use well.

Bolt-action: The other kind of rifle in common use. You fire one shot, you rack the bolt back and complete the firing cycle, to include loading a new round. You can then fire another shot. This is often considered more accurate than a semi-automatic weapon and capable of fire at longer ranges, but other factors can easily compensate for the difference most of the time.

Assault rifle: Used to denote a rifle with an intermediate cartridge (between the size of a battle rifle/large caliber hunting rifle and a pistol), a detachable magazine, and selectable fire that includes burst or automatic modes. These are another category of weapon that is almost impossible to get. You can get civilianized versions, which force the weapon to become semi-automatic only. Range on these is usually middling at best because of the round used, and accuracy is nothing to write home about. But they tend to be relatively light for a rifle and comfortable to use.

Assault weapon: It looks scary. No, really, that's about it. The requirements vary by whatever law is being used. The 1994 ban included bayonet mounts as part of the requirements to be considered an assault weapon. I'm not sure of any gun-related stabbing crimes in the last 50 years, but those were banned regardless.

If we can agree on those definitions, maybe we could have a discussion on the topic?




I do agree on the definitions, i was just trying to use simplified classes, so grouping semi auto and bolt action rifles together into the rifles category, and revolvers and pistols together in the pistols category, as they can effectively be grouped together due to purpose. And although Assualt rifles are apparently hard to get according to you, they are still used in ~50% of the gun massacres in the Usa according to the link i posted upstream. And apparently in the conneticut shooting, most of the kills Lanza used the AR-15 for, which as you say, is a civilianised version of the M16, which according to wikipedia has full auto potential, making it an assualt rifle. and while the civilian version is semi auto, in 30 seconds i have just learnt how to turn it full auto while writing this. so is an assualt rifle scary? yes. is it effective? considering the deaths caused by it in americas gun rampages, yes, it is effective.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
its not paranoia if its justified...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
`
Image


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
its not paranoia if its justified... :D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Top
Re: Four more years!
Post by Donnachaidh   » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:40 pm

Donnachaidh
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1018
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:11 pm

I'd trust him more if he wasn't pulling "facts" out of his...well I won't be that impolite but he inflated numbers to more than 4 times reality.

Spacekiwi wrote:
Daryl wrote:After much thought on this topic I think I may have finally sorted out the difference in mind set between someone brought up in the US and someone brought up in an other Western democracy.
We (non US) equate the democratically elected government as legitimately representing the country, and would regard an armed assault on it as treason even if we strongly disagreed with its values.
The gun lobby of the US regards the US state as separate to the current government and reserves the right to use lethal force to change that government if it has very different values to theirs, even if it was freely elected in a democratic election. This is the basis of their constitutional right to bear arms, even if it originally referred to single shot muskets, not M16s.




this article http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10854675 has a potential answer as to why the americans are unique in automatically considering the government seperate to the country about half way down. interestingly, its apparently due to getting democracy too early.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
its not paranoia if its justified...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_____________________________________________________
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
Top
Re: Four more years!
Post by Donnachaidh   » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:42 pm

Donnachaidh
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1018
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:11 pm

To make an AR15 automatic requires significant modification to either the firing mechanism or the stock. Either one is illegal and requires some knowledge of gunsmithing.



Spacekiwi wrote:I do agree on the definitions, i was just trying to use simplified classes, so grouping semi auto and bolt action rifles together into the rifles category, and revolvers and pistols together in the pistols category, as they can effectively be grouped together due to purpose. And although Assualt rifles are apparently hard to get according to you, they are still used in ~50% of the gun massacres in the Usa according to the link i posted upstream. And apparently in the conneticut shooting, most of the kills Lanza used the AR-15 for, which as you say, is a civilianised version of the M16, which according to wikipedia has full auto potential, making it an assualt rifle. and while the civilian version is semi auto, in 30 seconds i have just learnt how to turn it full auto while writing this. so is an assualt rifle scary? yes. is it effective? considering the deaths caused by it in americas gun rampages, yes, it is effective.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
its not paranoia if its justified...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_____________________________________________________
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
Top
Re: Four more years!
Post by pokermind   » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:46 pm

pokermind
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Posts: 4002
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:58 am
Location: Jerome, Idaho, USA

RandomGraysuit wrote:
Spacekiwi wrote:
thoughts?



My first thought is that it is unfortunate your father's experience and bravery has absolutely nothing to do with your knowledge on the subject, as shown by your post.

What is an 'assault rifle', or an 'assault weapon'? Are they the same thing? How often does a mass murderer 'spray and pray' with their gun? What is the difference between an automatic and semi-automatic firearm?

If we're going to talk about gun control, it would be good for everyone involved to be familiar with these basic concepts, so we know precisely what it is we wish to outlaw. Your post makes it clear you are not. This is precisely how laws that ban 'scary-looking semi-automatic assault weapons of mass destruction' and suchlike get made, and then either confuse the heck out of their supporters when they do nothing or get found unconstitutional and are struck down.

Some intro to guns definitions for you:

Automatic weapon: A weapon that fires more bullets as long as the trigger is held down. The M60 is an excellent example of this, as is the Uzi submachine gun, the M249, the Maxim, and Gatling machine gun. These weapons are incredibly restricted, and very hard to get in both time and money. They are practically never used in crimes because of how difficult they are to get, and because people who can get them tend to want to keep their records clean so they can *keep* playing with their toys.

Semi-automatic weapon: A weapon that fires one bullet every time the trigger is pulled. Most pistols are like this. Many rifles are like this too, including many hunting rifles. This is a basic standard for many modern firearms.

Revolver: The other kind of pistol. You usually get 6 shots, and it functions (to the end user) much like a semi-automatic pistol, although the inner workings are very different. When you want to reload, there are special devices to help you add rounds to the 6 chambers very quickly, but they need practice to use well.

Bolt-action: The other kind of rifle in common use. You fire one shot, you rack the bolt back and complete the firing cycle, to include loading a new round. You can then fire another shot. This is often considered more accurate than a semi-automatic weapon and capable of fire at longer ranges, but other factors can easily compensate for the difference most of the time.

Assault rifle: Used to denote a rifle with an intermediate cartridge (between the size of a battle rifle/large caliber hunting rifle and a pistol), a detachable magazine, and selectable fire that includes burst or automatic modes. These are another category of weapon that is almost impossible to get. You can get civilianized versions, which force the weapon to become semi-automatic only. Range on these is usually middling at best because of the round used, and accuracy is nothing to write home about. But they tend to be relatively light for a rifle and comfortable to use.

Assault weapon: It looks scary. No, really, that's about it. The requirements vary by whatever law is being used. The 1994 ban included bayonet mounts as part of the requirements to be considered an assault weapon. I'm not sure of any gun-related stabbing crimes in the last 50 years, but those were banned regardless.

If we can agree on those definitions, maybe we could have a discussion on the topic?


Ugh the Gatling gun is not an automatic weapon you have to physically turn the crank and they are legal to posses. The minigun puts a motor where the crank is and it fires very rapidly n is n automatic weapon start the motor with a switch and the gun fires until the switch is release it is illegal.
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Re: Four more years!
Post by Spacekiwi   » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:05 pm

Spacekiwi
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Posts: 2634
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Forgot to ask this before, but for the purposes of clarity, should we just agree on 4 groupings for guns for this argurement?

Pistols: all pistols and revolvers here.

Machine guns: guns which have full auto mode as the only fire mode.

Rifles: bolt and semi auto, single shot only, shotguns to be included in here as they simply fire a unique round.

Assualt rifles: rifles with selective fire, so can fire semi auto, burst, or full auto.

these groupings are fully distinct from each other, and easy enough for a layman to catergorize.
`
Image


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
its not paranoia if its justified... :D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Top
Re: Four more years!
Post by Donnachaidh   » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:29 pm

Donnachaidh
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1018
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:11 pm

Those seem like reasonable groups. Unless you're grouping weapons that can be modified to be automatic as machine guns. If you are then I would disagree because then most semi-automatic weapons would fall under the machine gun group (eg a Glock 17 can be modified to be fully automatic as can a Ruger 10/22 or just about any AR15 style weapon)

Spacekiwi wrote:Forgot to ask this before, but for the purposes of clarity, should we just agree on 4 groupings for guns for this argurement?

Pistols: all pistols and revolvers here.

Machine guns: guns which have full auto mode as the only fire mode.

Rifles: bolt and semi auto, single shot only, shotguns to be included in here as they simply fire a unique round.

Assualt rifles: rifles with selective fire, so can fire semi auto, burst, or full auto.

these groupings are fully distinct from each other, and easy enough for a layman to catergorize.
_____________________________________________________
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
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