Special Forces

Hi Krenn

WELCOME to the forms :)

You're right - - - the term IS saboteurs.

R

Krenn wrote:

kbus888 wrote:Hi guys

I agree that "Special Forces" are not a viable option on Safehold at this time.

However, Nynian has already (according to MTAT text evidence) caused the successful assassination of five vicars without getting caught.

?? Could she use her existing demonstrated skills as a really really sneaky person to cause some damage behind enemy lines ??

These strikes could not be timed with any accuracy, but maybe she COULD be told of targets (people or installations) by either Merlin (or his alter ego) that would help further the Charisian/Siddarmarkian cause..

Those are called 'saboteurs'. they are certainly a feasible weapon in this type of war. I have no stance or preference on whether or not the Charisian Empire should employ saboteurs as a matter of policy.

everyone is thinking in modern, current era of Special Forces. But Special Forces can be units out of the norm for a unit. How about Ski Trooops in the mountains Glaicerhart during the winter using alpine skis. or how about Snowshoe Troops.

If you want a modern example of how effective ski troops can be, read up on the Winter War of 1940. The Finnish Army held off the Red Army for almost 5 months using hit and run raids.

saber964 wrote:everyone is thinking in modern, current era of Special Forces. But Special Forces can be units out of the norm for a unit. How about Ski Trooops in the mountains Glaicerhart during the winter using alpine skis. or how about Snowshoe Troops.

If you want a modern example of how effective ski troops can be, read up on the Winter War of 1940. The Finnish Army held off the Red Army for almost 5 months using hit and run raids.

By that definition, Scouts are already SOF.
Any Charisian Military advisors to the Siddmark Army are Green Berets.
Etc.

Define Special Forces then look at existing organizations and you will find they already exist in some form - just not by that name...

saber964 wrote:everyone is thinking in modern, current era of Special Forces. But Special Forces can be units out of the norm for a unit. How about Ski Trooops in the mountains Glaicerhart during the winter using alpine skis. or how about Snowshoe Troops.

If you want a modern example of how effective ski troops can be, read up on the Winter War of 1940. The Finnish Army held off the Red Army for almost 5 months using hit and run raids.

No, special forces aren't simply abnormal units. Special forces fulfill a different role. What everyone else (and you) are giving examples of as being possible would be either elite forces or specialist forces. These have gone back thousands of years.

JimHacker wrote:

saber964 wrote:everyone is thinking in modern, current era of Special Forces. But Special Forces can be units out of the norm for a unit. How about Ski Trooops in the mountains Glaicerhart during the winter using alpine skis. or how about Snowshoe Troops.

If you want a modern example of how effective ski troops can be, read up on the Winter War of 1940. The Finnish Army held off the Red Army for almost 5 months using hit and run raids.

No, special forces aren't simply abnormal units. Special forces fulfill a different role. What everyone else (and you) are giving examples of as being possible would be either elite forces or specialist forces. These have gone back thousands of years.

The use of the term Special Forces is a modern invention. There have been Special Forces throughout history - usually light Cav for raiding and recon. For that matter, look up the original definition of Forlorn Hope.

The reason for the modern split of using forces designated as SOF is that changes in mobility, man-portable fire-power, and deep penatration have made it practical to have specialists for those roles. In the past, the commander simply picked an elite unit and gave it the job to conduct what is now considered SOF.
Ussually light cav since they were the most mobile.
Look at the origins of SOF units - most started as recon or raiding/sabotage elements before SOF was invented as a term/acronym...

Montrose Toast wrote:

JimHacker wrote:No, special forces aren't simply abnormal units. Special forces fulfill a different role. What everyone else (and you) are giving examples of as being possible would be either elite forces or specialist forces. These have gone back thousands of years.

The use of the term Special Forces is a modern invention. There have been Special Forces throughout history - usually light Cav for raiding and recon. For that matter, look up the original definition of Forlorn Hope.

The reason for the modern split of using forces designated as SOF is that changes in mobility, man-portable fire-power, and deep penatration have made it practical to have specialists for those roles. In the past, the commander simply picked an elite unit and gave it the job to conduct what is now considered SOF.
Ussually light cav since they were the most mobile.
Look at the origins of SOF units - most started as recon or raiding/sabotage elements before SOF was invented as a term/acronym...

While the term 'special forces' is a modern invention there is a reason for that: the concept is a modern invention as well, and one that would not be possible without modern technology.

Modern special forces fulfill the roles that assassins, raiders, scouts, saboteurs, heavy infantry, elite forces, guerillas, cavalry and skirmishers used to. The difference is that they're all this rolled into one. The fact that an operation which would today would be undertaken by special forces but would then be undertaken by light cavalry does not make the light cavalry special forces.

The invention of special forces came in the early 1940s with the invention of the commandoes. The term 'special forces' followed within a decade. I really haven't heard of anything before then which could possibly meet the definition. Thebes had its sacred band, Rome had teams of infiltrators/assassins, the Vikings had raiders and the American Civil War had its scout/marksmen - but none of these were special forces.

JimHacker wrote: The invention of special forces came in the early 1940s with the invention of the commandoes. The term 'special forces' followed within a decade. I really haven't heard of anything before then which could possibly meet the definition. Thebes had its sacred band, Rome had teams of infiltrators/assassins, the Vikings had raiders and the American Civil War had its scout/marksmen - but none of these were special forces.

Actually the term Commando came from the Boar War. The Afrikaners Kommandos were light horse raiding companies. Churchill remembered them and used the term when he needed raiders after the fall of France...

In most of the ME, the term Commando still refers to mounted troops [as in original Afrikaner use] - Elite Mechanized Infantry units.

The SOF functions have always been around - Commanders just used available elite regulars to fill them.

FYI

In US Army terms, SF is just the Green Berets. Their jobs are recon, raiding, and [primarily] leading/training indigs. A SF A-Team is a Battalion Cadre/MiTT. All functions that previously existed.

Special Operations Forces [SOF] is the big tent that includes SF, Ranger, SFD-D, 160th SOAR, SEAL, Marine SOF [Force Recon], PJs, and the AC-130s.

All the functions of SOF previously existed - the designation/training of specific units to perform them and calling them SOF is the modern invention...

[Edit: US Rangers origins pre-date the Declaration of Independence. Those Ranger Companies were American Militia Companies providing Recon/Raiding elements to the Brits fighting the French.]

Montrose Toast wrote:

JimHacker wrote: The invention of special forces came in the early 1940s with the invention of the commandoes. The term 'special forces' followed within a decade. I really haven't heard of anything before then which could possibly meet the definition. Thebes had its sacred band, Rome had teams of infiltrators/assassins, the Vikings had raiders and the American Civil War had its scout/marksmen - but none of these were special forces.

Actually the term Commando came from the Boar War. The Afrikaners Kommandos were light horse raiding companies. Churchill remembered them and used the term when he needed raiders after the fall of France...

In most of the ME, the term Commando still refers to mounted troops [as in original Afrikaner use] - Elite Mechanized Infantry units.

The SOF functions have always been around - Commanders just used available elite regulars to fill them.

FYI

In US Army terms, SF is just the Green Berets. Their jobs are recon, raiding, and [primarily] leading/training indigs. A SF A-Team is a Battalion Cadre/MiTT. All functions that previously existed.

Special Operations Forces [SOF] is the big tent that includes SF, Ranger, SFD-D, 160th SOAR, SEAL, Marine SOF [Force Recon], PJs, and the AC-130s.

All the functions of SOF previously existed - the designation/training of specific units to perform them and calling them SOF is the modern invention...

The original question which began this thread was

Biochem wrote:When is Merlin going to introduce the concept of Special Forces to Charis? He is aware of the advantages of an elite group of warriors who can strike deep into enemy territory, destroy their objective and then disappear into the night. After all as Merlin is rapidly discovering, he can't do everything himself.

in that context, we are discussing special forces with the implied definitions of:

1: Charis does not already have them.
and
2: They are capable of striking deeper into enemy territory, and dissapearing afterwards, in a better fashion that what Charis currently has.

Wikipedia has a fairly good article on what the terms Special Forces means, in the current modern context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces


I also have a fairly thorough definition up thread, describing what the term 'Special Forces' should be taken to mean, in the context of this discussion, and why Charis can't have them.

The fact that some units, previously in history, could fulfill some of the missions currently assigned to special forces, and that those units would have considered 'special' in their day, does not make them "Special Forces" as we understand the term today.

Since the TERM 'special forces' was invented in the 1940s-1950s, the rule of thumb should be that if you CAN accurately describe a unit with a term OTHER than special forces, that is what the unit should be called. The word special forces is properly reserved for units which cannot otherwise be described, as they are actually an amalgamation of several other terms, including light infantry, commandos, scouts, spies, saboteurs, and bodyguards.

If you believe that certain US Army units are reffered to as 'special forces', when by the definition we're using, they should not be, I'm willing to accept that certain US army units may need to be renamed, and that the common use of the word 'special forces' may have been corrupted over time.

However, I suspect that you're selling those units short: A lot of what the Green berets do is different from what military trainers have traditionally done.

Special Forces in the modern sense is effectively impossible to achieve with Safehold's tech levels.

However, several the precursors to modern Special Forces are achievable, but the only known force that's got special/non-standard training/doctrine and equipment are the Charisian Scout-Snipers. Every other precursor that is technologically viable was just a special tasking of standard units, though admittedly, units that were particularly good at non-standard tasks would tend to get those assignment more often than not.

The term "Special Forces" belongs to the Green Berets exclusively according to the US Army.
What you are calling Special Forces is called "Special Operations Forces" in the US Joint Forces and are under US Special Operations Command.

SOF units existed centuries before the terms SF and SOF were invented. Ussually they were primarily recon. E.G. Rangers. Deep Recon is still a major mission for modern SOF.

What did not exist prior to WWII was the terms SOF/SF .

The functions existed and some specialized forces were formed to fill them but, they were limited in mobility pre-mechanization. Hense the lack of deep raiding due to the lack of mobility. Which is why light Cav ussually performed the duties that are now assigned to SOF - they were the most mobile element in the pre-mech eras.

The US Army Rangers trace their linage to the early 1600s and they are part of US SOCOM.

Effectively, the Charisian Marine Scout/Snipers are an early form of SOF. They just haven't been unleashed for independent duty yet...