A Muslim preaching Tollerance.

I am not an expert on the Qu'ran and I don't pretend to be. I have not made any arguments about what the Qu'ran does or does not say. My issue is with viciokie's libelous statements about all followers of Islam.

While some of the worst mass murders were atheists, how possible was it before the 20th century to engage in mass murder? And the Crusades were full of what we would now call war crimes, just like almost every war in human history.

Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin were by any definition monsters, to say their faith was the reason is beyond ridiculous.

This may be from fiction but there is a lot of truth in it.

Abraham Jackson in Flag in Exile wrote:"Anyone who studies history eventually comes up against the same cruel irony, Jared. Man has probably spent more time killing his fellows 'in God's name' than for any other single reason...I know He loves us, but we must be a terrible disappointment to Him from time to time."

pokermind wrote:Gentlemen,

In discussing tolerance it is odd how our baser selves go to intolerance. If we cannot find a way to live together then eventually we will destroy this planet.

While millions are killed over the squabbles over who's view of God or Allah are correct some of the worst mass murders in history were atheists, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and Pol Pot to name a few.

As a Christian I find Romans chapters four and five very good on tolerance, Donnachaidh what verses of the Qu'ran would you suggest? And viciokie on what basis as an atheist would you base tolerance? Come on guys lets give peace a chance Here's some mood music Bing Crosby & the Andrews Sisters' Accentuate the Positive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=fZUmAbi0Vm4&feature=endscreen

Poker

Hi Donnachaia

I'll interspace comments in you quote in red.

Donnachaidh wrote:I am not an expert on the Qu'ran and I don't pretend to be. Sorry I thought you might be. I have not made any arguments about what the Qu'ran does or does not say. My issue is with viciokie's libelous statements about all followers of Islam. Considering the Duckk has already warned him, and after what happened to Namelsessfly he should control himself in his posts. However this issue brings forth strong feelings and we all loose it from time to time.

While some of the worst mass murders were atheists, how possible was it before the 20th century to engage in mass murder? And the Crusades were full of what we would now call war crimes, just like almost every war in human history. Yep, but history if full of societies being exterminated prior to industrialization too.

Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin were by any definition monsters, to say their faith was the reason is beyond ridiculous. Or in this case lack thereof

This may be from fiction but there is a lot of truth in it.

Abraham Jackson in Flag in Exile wrote:"Anyone who studies history eventually comes up against the same cruel irony, Jared. Man has probably spent more time killing his fellows 'in God's name' than for any other single reason...I know He loves us, but we must be a terrible disappointment to Him from time to time."

Quite true, I also liked David's crack about God not liking the kids in the back seat fist fighting while he's driving, too.

As a hint the best way to handle trollish behavior is not to feed the troll with recognition, just saying. Commenting on bad behavior not personalizations is more likely to to stop rather than encourage trollish behavior, that comes dangerously close to flaming, just saying. You don't want a "Cool it!" PM from the Duckk do you?

Poker

i do not libel islam in anyway shape or form. i merely speak the truth about it. assuming you are a big as a proponent about a barbaric religion then go out and educate them how not to be so barbaric.

pokermind wrote:Gentlemen,


While millions are killed over the squabbles over who's view of God or Allah are correct some of the worst mass murders in history were atheists, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and Pol Pot to name a few.

As a Christian I find Romans chapters four and five very good on tolerance, Donnachaidh what verses of the Qu'ran would you suggest? And viciokie on what basis as an atheist would you base tolerance? Come on guys lets give peace a chance Here's some mood music Bing Crosby & the Andrews Sisters' Accentuate the Positive:
Poker

couple of points, Hitler was raised as a catholic altar boy and so was stalin. western and eastern othordoxies respectively. Both were among the most barbaric mass murderers as was pol pot who was athiest.

as for fair treatment of people i consider that all people need to believe how they wish even if it is in some fairy tale fiction. I really do wish that people can live and let live and learn to get away from childish fictions like religions.
I prefer to embrace reality and live life like that. do i go overboard sometimes, yes i freely admit it but do i find the actions of people who profess to be a religion of peace abominable? yes definately, forcing children to marry at age 9 or less (several muslim nations do that) strapping bombs onto children and blowing them up, throwing acid in womens faces, raping and killing women, forcing children back into a burning building and killing them by burning them alive, kidnapping and murdering aid workers who are just trying to help the lives of people who are affected by famine or some other disaster and the list goes on and on.

viciokie wrote:
couple of points, Hitler was raised as a catholic altar boy and so was stalin. western and eastern othordoxies respectively. Both were among the most barbaric mass murderers as was pol pot who was athiest. Stalin actually studied to be a priest! Bunt none of them were practicing religion when in power, ever see a photo of Hitler in church?

as for fair treatment of people i consider that all people need to believe how they wish even if it is in some fairy tale fiction. I really do wish that people can live and let live and learn to get away from childish fictions like religions. Even though you believe this good manners might make you loose the 'childish fiction' remarks. They might be considered flaming or belittling a person's religion by the Duckk, just saying.

I prefer to embrace reality and live life like that. do i go overboard sometimes, yes i freely admit it but do i find the actions of people who profess to be a religion of peace abominable? yes definately, forcing children to marry at age 9 or less (several muslim nations do that) strapping bombs onto children and blowing them up, throwing acid in womens faces, raping and killing women, forcing children back into a burning building and killing them by burning them alive, kidnapping and murdering aid workers who are just trying to help the lives of people who are affected by famine or some other disaster and the list goes on and on.

Good points. I like the one poster who noted Islam ws about where the Christian church was during the Witch trials and the Inquisition.

Now unfortunately dealing with Muslims peacefully means you have to know their religion it's central in their culture. If you don't know that you can't convince them with anything but force, and the second your back is turned they will go back to that old time religion.

For fully 1000 years, 632-1632 Christian Era,
Islam was more tolerant that Christianity.
Usually *much* more tolerant.
In 1632 the Christians caught up.
For the next two and a half centuries they were even.
Then Islam started to backslide.

The Wahabis, and some other Moslems, might be barbarians.
For their first ten centuries Islam was the most
civilized religion in the world, and then they remained
tied for most tolerant.

I say this as a Jew, who has needed to study both.
I would have been better off ruled by Moslems than
by Christians, until the time of Napoleon Bonaparte.

Howard "Map-addict" Wilkins

viciokie wrote:i do not libel islam in anyway shape or form.
i merely speak the truth about it. assuming you are a
big as a proponent about a barbaric religion then go
out and educate them how not to be so barbaric.

H.T.M is right. if you look at the history books, Islamists were the most civilised countries in the world prior to the middle ages. we use their number system everyday, and even the more specialized version, algebra. they have had great philosophers, engineers and scientists.


It all depends on how you look at the situation.


At the moment, the western world is ahead in terms of equality for women, and the overall tolerance level of other religions. But there are probably just as many christian fanatics as islamic fanatics out there in the world at the moment. we just hear more about the islamic fanatics as:

1. the new agencies are more predisposed to comment on foreigners of a different religion and ethnicity fighting for their beliefs.

and 2: the police and defense forces in the middle east are currently less effective and less equipped and staffed then in western countries. we dont hear about deaths caused by right or left wing christian fundamentalists as the cops usually catch them before they can act. Anders Brevik is probably one of the few exceptions who managed to avoid the cops and commit his crime.


And as for Pol Pot and Stalin, I think i recall somewhere about a historian noting that for Stalin, Communism was his religion, and pol pot and his cadre believed in communism so deeply as to make it an ideological idea for themselves, effectively turning into a system which thye worshiped, making it a religion. Also, it was noted by ex officers of russia and germany post world war 2 that they did not allow religion as it meant soldiers would have divided loyalties as to who to obey: the church and the holy bible, or the state, and their orders. so for them, the church needed to go.

and as for numbers killed, atheism ranks highly on a per event level due to it being a more recent concept, so the world tech level and population levels are higher, allowing for a quicker and more efficient way to raise the numbers, thanks to bombs and guns, which allow the killing of many at a time, as opposed to a sword which requires getting up close and personal.



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its not paranoia if its justified....
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pokermind wrote:While millions are killed over the squabbles over who's view of God or Allah are correct some of the worst mass murders in history were atheists, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and Pol Pot to name a few.

Pokermind, I think you're a little confused there. Hitler was not an atheist by any stretch of the imagination. He DID however have a mustache. So did Stalin. I'm not sure that Mao and Pol Pot could grow a decent 'stash, but they probably would have if it had been possible.

Clearly, the problem is not lack of religion, but the presence of mustaches! Yes, sad to say, growing a mustache appears to be directly related to becoming a mass murderer.

(In case it wasn't obvious, the above is not intended to be serious)

There may be someone out there who has yelled "In the name of not a damn thing, I slay thee!" or "The power of nothingness compels you to kill the believers!" In the cases you've named however, Communism, racial purity and Maoism were the justifications for those mass murderers.

RandomGraysuit wrote:

pokermind wrote:While millions are killed over the squabbles over who's view of God or Allah are correct some of the worst mass murders in history were atheists, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and Pol Pot to name a few.

Pokermind, I think you're a little confused there. Hitler was not an atheist by any stretch of the imagination. He DID however have a mustache. So did Stalin. I'm not sure that Mao and Pol Pot could grow a decent 'stash, but they probably would have if it had been possible.

Clearly, the problem is not lack of religion, but the presence of mustaches! Yes, sad to say, growing a mustache appears to be directly related to becoming a mass murderer.

(In case it wasn't obvious, the above is not intended to be serious)

There may be someone out there who has yelled "In the name of not a damn thing, I slay thee!" or "The power of nothingness compels you to kill the believers!" In the cases you've named however, Communism, racial purity and Maoism were the justifications for those mass murderers.

Mange, <Hum, what you two-legs might call 'extremist progressive thought.'>

Mange