MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware

kbus888 wrote:Hi thinkstoomuch

I do not think Safehold ad/used 800 years to build canals.

I believe the terra forming crew did all the canal building and Safeholdians USED them for 800 years.

There is very little canal building expertise IMO, just usage experience.

?? Comments ??

R

RFC posted the following a few posts up. I have added the bold. Seems to indicate that the canals have been significantly improved to me since the archangels have left.

runsforcelery wrote:Remember what I've said over and over again — it's extremely dangerous to pick a given point in preindustrial Earth technology and extrapolate from that point to determine what Safeholdian capabilities are. These are political and economic units with substantial population resources and with "technological" capabilities which were set at very different levels from, say, 1840 North America. Moreover, the Erie Canal (and most of the canal systems contemporary to it) were the products of private enterprise produced as profit-making projects, often with state-provided subsidies or financing channels, but without the resources of a nation with a population of, oh, 129,000,000 or so people and what amounts to a planetwide imperial government and taxation system to help direct and pay for infrastructure improvements.

That's going to have at least a few small implications for the scale on which its operating, don't you think? [G]

For what it is worth,
T2M

I was going to let it lie but lack of will power bit me again. Actually looking at it how the heck did I not realize that post was this close. Oops should have never posted that last one. Dang view "new posts" and preconceived thoughts betrayed me once again. Didn't even realize I was being this stupid. Thanks for pointing out a RFC post I somehow ignored or misplaced in my own mind. I am really stupid. :-(

runsforcelery wrote: SNIPP

Remember what I've said over and over again — it's extremely dangerous to pick a given point in preindustrial Earth technology and extrapolate from that point to determine what Safeholdian capabilities are. These are political and economic units with substantial population resources and with "technological" capabilities which were set at very different levels from, say, 1840 North America. Moreover, the Erie Canal (and most of the canal systems contemporary to it) were the products of private enterprise produced as profit-making projects, often with state-provided subsidies or financing channels, but without the resources of a nation with a population of, oh, 129,000,000 or so people and what amounts to a planetwide imperial government and taxation system to help direct and pay for infrastructure improvements.

That's going to have at least a few small implications for the scale on which its operating, don't you think? [G]

Here are some cost-per-mile figures for orginal construction of most of the early canal projects:

Erie ($ 19,255.49)
N.Y. State Canals, average ($ 17,367.57)
Delaware & Hudson ($ 20,655.00)
Lehigh ($ 33,610.00)
Pennsylvania State Canals ($ 22,113.00)
Schuykill ($ 16,741.26)
Union ($ 18,518.51)
All New England Canals ($ 12,838.71)
Middlesex Canals ($ 19,000.00)
Ohio & Erie ($ 10,000.00)
Miami & Erie ($ 12,000.00)
Chesapeake & Delaware ($ 165,000.00) -> thats right, 165k per mile!

Your costs reflect the geology of the canal area as much as anything else. Geology is another area that we are woefully deficient in knowledge. Then again, its secondary to the plot. But if forces encounter the gravelly marshy sediments, it will impact operations.

chickladoria wrote:Your costs reflect the geology of the canal area as much as anything else. Geology is another area that we are woefully deficient in knowledge. Then again, its secondary to the plot. But if forces encounter the gravelly marshy sediments, it will impact operations.

The original Erie canal was far from perfect. To stay serviceable, it needed constant attention to repair normal wear and tear on everything from lock gates to the towpath, and natural occurrences wreaked havoc all too often. Heavy rainfall could dump more water into the ditch than overflow spillways could handle, causing the canal to overflow its banks. This usually meant damage to the banks and towpath that stopped navigation until it could be repaired. The entire canal froze in the winter, curtailing both navigation and maintenance for months. Under-ice currents and the action of snow and ice on the earthen banks damaged significant stretches every winter, but the damage could not be seen or corrected until the spring thaw. Miles of banks and towpaths needed reshaping each year, and the first boats through usually ran aground on shallow spots that had formed during the winter. These, of course, had to be dredged out as quickly as possible.

The stone lock and aqueduct structures generally fared better than the channels, but they were certainly not immune from weather damage. Water still found cracks where it could seep into or between stones, and its freezing and thawing actions gradually produced additional cracking or heaving in weak spots. Moving ice could also damage lock gates. Damage that prevented proper operation or distorted the shape and size of a lock could result in opening delays of days, or occasionally weeks, pending repair.

BTW, Lock gate repairs and replacements appear frequently in the canal commissioners' annual reports, and spare gates were kept available. At mid-century, each set of gates cost approximately $170.

The commissioners did not comment on the reasons for such repairs, but these were large, wooden components that saw frequent movement, so normal wear and tear would take some toll. Constantly exposed to water, decay was inevitable. They were also very exposed to impacts from the boats, which were handled entirely by men and mules. Minor collisions with no damage likely were a common occurrence, especially during busy periods, but even though the gates were solidly built, the force from a boat being moved a bit too fast from one lock to the next could be substantial. Damage to a gate severe enough to cause its immediate failure was no doubt rare, if it ever occurred, but serious damage to any structural member could allow the water pressure to distort the gate, causing leaks or making it difficult for the lock tenders to open and close.

Captain Igloo wrote:

runsforcelery wrote: SNIPP

Remember what I've said over and over again — it's extremely dangerous to pick a given point in preindustrial Earth technology and extrapolate from that point to determine what Safeholdian capabilities are. These are political and economic units with substantial population resources and with "technological" capabilities which were set at very different levels from, say, 1840 North America. Moreover, the Erie Canal (and most of the canal systems contemporary to it) were the products of private enterprise produced as profit-making projects, often with state-provided subsidies or financing channels, but without the resources of a nation with a population of, oh, 129,000,000 or so people and what amounts to a planetwide imperial government and taxation system to help direct and pay for infrastructure improvements.

That's going to have at least a few small implications for the scale on which its operating, don't you think? [G]

Here are some cost-per-mile figures for orginal construction of most of the early canal projects:

Erie ($ 19,255.49)
N.Y. State Canals, average ($ 17,367.57)
Delaware & Hudson ($ 20,655.00)
Lehigh ($ 33,610.00)
Pennsylvania State Canals ($ 22,113.00)
Schuykill ($ 16,741.26)
Union ($ 18,518.51)
All New England Canals ($ 12,838.71)
Middlesex Canals ($ 19,000.00)
Ohio & Erie ($ 10,000.00)
Miami & Erie ($ 12,000.00)
Chesapeake & Delaware ($ 165,000.00) -> thats right, 165k per mile!

And then there is the story of the C&O canal:

http://www.canalbird.com/history/index.htm

Hey KBus888,

I think there must be some canal building still going on. Remember Howsmyn built a canal to link his Delthak foundries with the Iron ore mines.

kbus888 wrote:Hi thinkstoomuch

I do not think Safehold ad/used 800 years to build canals.

I believe the terra forming crew did all the canal building and Safeholdians USED them for 800 years.

There is very little canal building expertise IMO, just usage experience.

?? Comments ??

R

Wow. I evoked an RFC response. [G]

...and considering the size of their freight wagons, I had a sneaking suspicion.

But then my next question is, how does a riverboat nearly the length of a sea going war galleon get transported from Charis to the mainland? Tow? Seems to me that I recall some early ironclads were swamped on the open ocean during storms...

kbus888 wrote:Hi thinkstoomuch

I do not think Safehold ad/used 800 years to build canals.

I believe the terra forming crew did all the canal building and Safeholdians USED them for 800 years.

There is very little canal building expertise IMO, just usage experience.

?? Comments ??

R

The terraforming crew MIGHT have built canals. That's not implied by RFC's posts, however...and I am reasonably sure that wherever the original settlements WERE, the population has grown and dispersed to randomized locations over the intervening years.

Hi MarcW

Yes he did some canal building.

But he is not at all typical of Safeholdian expertise.

HE HAS MERLIN as a guide on for to do things.

R

MarcW wrote:Hey KBus888,

I think there must be some canal building still going on. Remember Howsmyn built a canal to link his Delthak foundries with the Iron ore mines.

kbus888 wrote:Hi thinkstoomuch

I do not think Safehold ad/used 800 years to build canals.

I believe the terra forming crew did all the canal building and Safeholdians USED them for 800 years.

There is very little canal building expertise IMO, just usage experience.

?? Comments ??

R

But we also have textev that a canal was built to get the Glacierheart coal to market. Not provided by the archangels and used for centuries. Built. Recently, no less.

And we can also add in that the MWW specifically stated (somewhere on the forums) that part of the "archangel's instructions" contains detailed instructions on maintaining and building canals. Obviously those instructions do not contemplate powered machinery like what they had. But just like they provide "miraculous" explanations for a huge host of scientific principles, they also provide "religious" instructions of how to do many necessary physical tasks. We don't have even close to a full list of these tasks, but we do know it includes: midwifing children, planting crops, forging iron, charcoal burning, and yes building canals.

Sorry, but you're just flat wrong. The newer canals are not EASY to build, for many obvious reasons. I'd be very unsurprised to find they are of lesser quality, in fact I'd be quite shocked to find the opposite. But they are still quite capable of doing it. And they have done it. No doubt quite a few times.

kbus888 wrote:Hi MarcW

Yes he did some canal building.

But he is not at all typical of Safeholdian expertise.

HE HAS MERLIN as a guide on for to do things.

R

MarcW wrote:Hey KBus888,

I think there must be some canal building still going on. Remember Howsmyn built a canal to link his Delthak foundries with the Iron ore mines.

kbus888 wrote:Hi thinkstoomuch

I do not think Safehold ad/used 800 years to build canals.

I believe the terra forming crew did all the canal building and Safeholdians USED them for 800 years.

There is very little canal building expertise IMO, just usage experience.

?? Comments ??

R

Hi FriarBob

Yup, you're right and I'm wrong !!

I had forgotten the Glacierheart canals.

Thanks for the correction.

R