Defending a wormhole junction/terminus.

Guys, even a warship's compensator and impellers are about 5% of its mass. The Medusa-Bs have a bit over 70% of their mass in offensive armament in total (this probably includes the sensors for said offensive armament and the control links/computer systems). The hull itself can't be less than 10% the mass since despite some armor reduction, this is still a superdreadnought hull. Powerplants, power capacitors, reactor bunkerage and reaction thrusters would be another 10% combined. That leaves less than 10% for sidewall generators, alpha and beta nodes, impeller rooms, compensator, gravity plates and hyper generator.
Now, remember that impellers, compensator, hyper generator and the like increase more slowly in mass/size than the ship's mass/size increase. (for example an SD is 50% larger than a dreadnought but those systems are only 20% larger) So I ask again;

If the alpha and beta nodes, impeller rooms, hyper generator, compensator and gravity plates of a fort are less than 10% of its mass combined, why shouldn't a fort have them?



PS:
If an SD can pull 650 gs and 1 gravity is lost per 20 kilotons of extra mass beyond that point (as opposed to 24-25 kilotons for the older compensators), a 16-megaton fortress could still pull 275 gravities with a compensator and, presumably, 2475 gravities in hyper.

Belial666 wrote:PS:
If an SD can pull 650 gs and 1 gravity is lost per 20 kilotons of extra mass beyond that point (as opposed to 24-25 kilotons for the older compensators), a 16-megaton fortress could still pull 275 gravities with a compensator and, presumably, 2475 gravities in hyper.

Uh, no. First, you are pulling numbers out of thin air--what makes you think think the new compensators have improved the dropoff like that? Second, even the 1 gravity loss per 24-25 kilotons is incorrect. I believe you are taking that from one of the early books? That was incorrect and was later superceded in infodumps. David made it clear that even a ship smaller than a Manticoran fortress would have a compensator acceleration limit of under 1 gee. This means an acceleration curve much steeper than you suppose.

Belial666 wrote:OK, 12 forts can fend off 250 superdreadnoughts with both the forts and the SDs being of pre-Apollo tech and after Apollo their combat power has been multiplied considerably.


Any specific reason why a 30-kiloton hyper generator and the maybe 100-kiloton impeller modifications that allow warsawski sails should not be put to those forts?

Since we've seen so little detail about the forts I don't know. I had a vague recollection that they might have only a single impeller ring (but the only mention of that config I can is for the very first impeller drive missiles in An Introduction to Modern Starship Armor Design from In Fire Forges)

Without the actual text-ev I can't check the wording to see if it might mean one total ring, or just beta rings (not alphas).

But if you can make a wedge (however inefficient) with just one beta node ring then the hullform of the ship/fort attached to it might be far different from the tapered cylinder of a starship. In turn that could make adding sails a total redesign, not just </irony> a matter of installing the larger alpha nodes and tuners.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Belial666 wrote:OK, 12 forts can fend off 250 superdreadnoughts with both the forts and the SDs being of pre-Apollo tech and after Apollo their combat power has been multiplied considerably.


Any specific reason why a 30-kiloton hyper generator and the maybe 100-kiloton impeller modifications that allow warsawski sails should not be put to those forts?

Since we've seen so little detail about the forts I don't know. I had a vague recollection that they might have only a single impeller ring (but the only mention of that config I can is for the very first impeller drive missiles in An Introduction to Modern Starship Armor Design from In Fire Forges)

Without the actual text-ev I can't check the wording to see if it might mean one total ring, or just beta rings (not alphas).

But if you can make a wedge (however inefficient) with just one beta node ring then the hullform of the ship/fort attached to it might be far different from the tapered cylinder of a starship. In turn that could make adding sails a total redesign, not just </irony> a matter of installing the larger alpha nodes and tuners.

I seem to remember a comment that there's an upper mass limit to one of the components - the tradeoffs make it infeasible to have a hyper capable unit above that mass. However, my memory could very well be faulty on that issue.

If it isn't, however, there's a simple reason why forts aren't hyper capable: they're too big.

JohnRoth wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:

Belial666 wrote:OK, 12 forts can fend off 250 superdreadnoughts with both the forts and the SDs being of pre-Apollo tech and after Apollo their combat power has been multiplied considerably.


Any specific reason why a 30-kiloton hyper generator and the maybe 100-kiloton impeller modifications that allow warsawski sails should not be put to those forts?

Since we've seen so little detail about the forts I don't know. I had a vague recollection that they might have only a single impeller ring (but the only mention of that config I can is for the very first impeller drive missiles in An Introduction to Modern Starship Armor Design from In Fire Forges)

Without the actual text-ev I can't check the wording to see if it might mean one total ring, or just beta rings (not alphas).

But if you can make a wedge (however inefficient) with just one beta node ring then the hullform of the ship/fort attached to it might be far different from the tapered cylinder of a starship. In turn that could make adding sails a total redesign, not just </irony> a matter of installing the larger alpha nodes and tuners.

I seem to remember a comment that there's an upper mass limit to one of the components - the tradeoffs make it infeasible to have a hyper capable unit above that mass. However, my memory could very well be faulty on that issue.

If it isn't, however, there's a simple reason why forts aren't hyper capable: they're too big.

Inertial compensators have a point where you get rapidly diminish efficiencies, which is why waller tonnage creep has been so low (relative to the tonnage creep of lighter units).
Don't think anything like that was said ever about hyperdrives, though.

JohnRoth wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:

Belial666 wrote:OK, 12 forts can fend off 250 superdreadnoughts with both the forts and the SDs being of pre-Apollo tech and after Apollo their combat power has been multiplied considerably.


Any specific reason why a 30-kiloton hyper generator and the maybe 100-kiloton impeller modifications that allow warsawski sails should not be put to those forts?

Since we've seen so little detail about the forts I don't know. I had a vague recollection that they might have only a single impeller ring (but the only mention of that config I can is for the very first impeller drive missiles in An Introduction to Modern Starship Armor Design from In Fire Forges)

Without the actual text-ev I can't check the wording to see if it might mean one total ring, or just beta rings (not alphas).

But if you can make a wedge (however inefficient) with just one beta node ring then the hullform of the ship/fort attached to it might be far different from the tapered cylinder of a starship. In turn that could make adding sails a total redesign, not just </irony> a matter of installing the larger alpha nodes and tuners.

I seem to remember a comment that there's an upper mass limit to one of the components - the tradeoffs make it infeasible to have a hyper capable unit above that mass. However, my memory could very well be faulty on that issue.

If it isn't, however, there's a simple reason why forts aren't hyper capable: they're too big.

And aren't they also probably the wrong shape for nodes anyway? After all, a space station is probably a much different shape to a space ship. Look at Doctor who, Star Wars, Star Trek, almost any sci fi you want to name, and i bet the space stations are shaped differently to the ships.


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I may be a stinker, But I am a MANTICORAN Stinker!
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Spacekiwi wrote:
And aren't they also probably the wrong shape for nodes anyway? After all, a space station is probably a much different shape to a space ship. Look at Doctor who, Star Wars, Star Trek, almost any sci fi you want to name, and i bet the space stations are shaped differently to the ships.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I may be a stinker, But I am a MANTICORAN Stinker!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

They might be, I was certainly wondering that. But we do know that forts can raise wedges and 'normal' sidewalls; not just bubble 'walls. The real issue is that forts haven't been well described and neither have all the limitations of wedge node geometry. Especially for ships which aren't hyper capable (which would also include shuttles, pinnaces, and in-system freighters).


Oh, now there's a thought. I don't think there's a diagram of a pinnace or shuttle in the books, but I've got a copy of the Jaynes Intelligence Review booklet for Manticore and for Haven and they each include some diagrams of those small craft. Shuttles and Pinnaces are much more airplane looking and have what appears to be only a single impeller ring towards their stern (and it can be fared over with flaps when operating in pure air-breathing mode)

So taking that, plus the description of a single impeller ring missile from In Fire Forged (quoted in an earlier post), and also the Mk-16 missile diagram from Storm from the Shadows (which shows a "stage 1" and "stage 2" impeller ring; both near the rear of the dual drive missile) it seems that you can have impeller driven craft with hull shape that differs significantly from a conventional warship or hyper-capable freighter.

That does seem to make it more likely that forts are designed with a different shape that could help maximize their effectiveness in their chosen arena (normal space combat)

Spacekiwi wrote:And aren't they also probably the wrong shape for nodes anyway? After all, a space station is probably a much different shape to a space ship. Look at Doctor who, Star Wars, Star Trek, almost any sci fi you want to name, and i bet the space stations are shaped differently to the ships.

Hyperdrive doesn't have that geometry issues. You could, in theory, build a 200 million ton space station in Beowulf and send it through the manticore wormhole on a reaction drive.

kzt wrote:

Spacekiwi wrote:And aren't they also probably the wrong shape for nodes anyway? After all, a space station is probably a much different shape to a space ship. Look at Doctor who, Star Wars, Star Trek, almost any sci fi you want to name, and i bet the space stations are shaped differently to the ships.

Hyperdrive doesn't have that geometry issues. You could, in theory, build a 200 million ton space station in Beowulf and send it through the manticore wormhole on a reaction drive.

Actually, hyper travel does have gemoetry issues, unless you plot a course to keep you entirely out of gravity waves (and, of course, wormholes [G]). The main reason a hyper-capable ship has two impeller rings is because you need to generate two Warshaski sails in order to maneuver/maintain stability in a grav wave. Freighters have to have the second ring to provide the forward sail; LACs, which are not hyper capable, have only a single ring; warships use the forward ring to allow beta node redundancy and also to permit them to generate a second complete wedge as part of their defensive systems.

runsforcelery wrote:Actually, hyper travel does have gemoetry issues, unless you plot a course to keep you entirely out of gravity waves (and, of course, wormholes [G]). The main reason a hyper-capable ship has two impeller rings is because you need to generate two Warshaski sails in order to maneuver/maintain stability in a grav wave. Freighters have to have the second ring to provide the forward sail; LACs, which are not hyper capable, have only a single ring; warships use the forward ring to allow beta node redundancy and also to permit them to generate a second complete wedge as part of their defensive systems.

Emphasis mine.

What?

I thought that variable-strength Impeller wedges worked best with 2 impeller rings, thus giving superior tuning capabilities. And LACs only have 1 ring?
Yet the picture of the Shrike shows 2 rings... Is this because it is a true Combat LAC?

Man, I hate it when I have to abandon a long-held assumption...