Defending a wormhole junction/terminus.

The RMN's traditional way of defending the junction by stationing forts at the junction is the wrong way to do it. As Weber emphasized, an attacker could transit in from any of the termini unexpectedly and catch the forts at low alert status. This was a result of an isolationist policy that left the various terminae undefended and usually not under RMN control. Trevers Star was already under Havenite Control at the time of OBS and the purpose of the Basilisk operation was to seize a second termini to enable the simultaneous mass transit of two fleets. The SLN ploy of having a fleet transit in from the Beawulf terminus was a demonstration of the same principle.

A far superior strategy is to sieze control of all termini and actively defend them. Alternatively, allow powerful allies (the Andermandi control AND Defend termini). Part of the defense strategy is to have the termini defense forces summon reinforcements from the junction to reinforce a termini under attack. (How many times have we seen this tactic as a central plot element.).

Manticoran foreign policy has evolved from isolationist to arguable imperialistic as a direct result of the strategic and tactic realities that favor defending wormhole termini rather than just the central junction. This too has been a major plot arc.

Now in Case Lacoon II being implemented, we see Manticore systematically seizing and defending all junction and termini. CAs with Apollo pods will suffice in the short term, but heavier forces will be needed.

namelessfly wrote:The RMN's traditional way of defending the junction by stationing forts at the junction is the wrong way to do it. As Weber emphasized, an attacker could transit in from any of the termini unexpectedly and catch the forts at low alert status. This was a result of an isolationist policy that left the various terminae undefended and usually not under RMN control. Trevers Star was already under Havenite Control at the time of OBS and the purpose of the Basilisk operation was to seize a second termini to enable the simultaneous mass transit of two fleets. The SLN ploy of having a fleet transit in from the Beawulf terminus was a demonstration of the same principle.

Basilisk Station was a political minefield which specifically precluded defenses. It is not indicative of how well the other termini were defended prewar. Note that once the political situation was resolved, the termini defenses were heavily upgraded.

A far superior strategy is to sieze control of all termini and actively defend them. Alternatively, allow powerful allies (the Andermandi control AND Defend termini). Part of the defense strategy is to have the termini defense forces summon reinforcements from the junction to reinforce a termini under attack. (How many times have we seen this tactic as a central plot element.).

Except the Andermani weren't allies of any sort until after Thunderbolt. Relations were cordial at best, frigid at worst. Most of the other termini had no powerful ally in the area. Only Beowulf has any powerful defense force, but that's also the terminus under the least amount of threat since it would have been defended by the entire might of the Solarian League (recalling that open warfare between the two star nations was previously inconceivable).

Manticoran foreign policy has evolved from isolationist to arguable imperialistic as a direct result of the strategic and tactic realities that favor defending wormhole termini rather than just the central junction. This too has been a major plot arc.

Manticore's foreign policy has always been to secure the far end of a terminus whenever possible. There has been zero departure from historical precedent in this regard. When people talk about Manticore's imperialism, they're talking about the annexations of Talbott and Silesia, an expansionism which Manticore had never previously expressed an interest in.

Duckk wrote:

namelessfly wrote:A far superior strategy is to sieze control of all termini and actively defend them. Alternatively, allow powerful allies (the Andermandi control AND Defend termini). Part of the defense strategy is to have the termini defense forces summon reinforcements from the junction to reinforce a termini under attack. (How many times have we seen this tactic as a central plot element.).

Except the Andermani weren't allies of any sort until after Thunderbolt. Relations were cordial at best, frigid at worst. Most of the other termini had no powerful ally in the area. Only Beowulf has any powerful defense force, but that's also the terminus under the least amount of threat since it would have been defended by the entire might of the Solarian League (recalling that open warfare between the two star nations was previously inconceivable).

Wasn't the Andermani terminus defended by the RMN?

Honor Among Enemies wrote:The Empire recognized our preexisting treaty with the Gregor Republic when it, ah, acquired Gregor-B forty years ago. They may not exactly be delighted about it, but for all intents and purposes, Gregor-A belongs to us, and they've always acknowledged our legitimate concern over the security of the Junction terminus there.
[snip]
The Gregor terminus had its own fortresses, although they were far smaller and less numerous than those in Manticore

Sure it probably had some additional realpolitic protection from the Legislaturalists or Peeps because neither government wanted to risk dragging the Andermandi into the first war.

So large Havenite task forces were unlikely to overfly Basilisk to try crashing through Gregor. But the defensive forces were RMN.

(That may have been modified after Thunderbolt when the Andermandi joined the Alliance. Gregor's still an unlikely target, but there might have been some Andermandi ships stationed there to supplement the forts)

Wasn't the Andermani terminus defended by the RMN?

That's my point. Namelessfly is saying the terminus should have been protected by the Andermani allies. I'm saying that until recently, it was the RMN's responsibility to defend it.

Duckk wrote:

Wasn't the Andermani terminus defended by the RMN?

That's my point.

Oops, yes it was. Sometimes I get in a hurry miss things that aren't spelled out in big letters [g]

Thank you Duckk

SEM has had their terminus policy driven by the Haven war. It is vastly differnt now than at the time of OBS
Even before the Haven wars, I suspect that the Astro Control at the non-Manticorian end of each temminus had a dispatch boat or two available to take a message through to the home system should something unusual happen or the officer in charge became concerned. That is how Honor's messagae for Case Zulu was transmitted home.

Now there is a military force at the far end of each of those wormholes. The one at Beowulf wasn't obvious until needed (ok, and for that one it had probably been substatialy increased with the knowlege of what was about to happen with Fillerta) but still SEM has been putting forts and ships at the far end of the various wormholes.

You don't build fortifications or post fleets somewhere unless you suspect there is probably going to be a problem. Of course you might construct a massive force in a place with the intent of using it as a stepping off point for attack or conquset but SEM hasn't been doing that (with the exception of what they did to Trevor's star after they took the system from PRH and that was with the blessing of the original system ownership which upon liberation immedialty requested to become part of the then Star NATION of Manticore)
But when you can see an active threat , you dispose your forces as best you can and protect along the obvious lines of attach.

The reason Lacoon II has been going as well as described- so far- is that the SL leadership appears never to have considered that SEM would ever think about let alone try to take EITHER end of any of the bridges into SL territory (or places under OFS control)
That run down several wormholes as described in ART was beautifull. And what was left at each terminus is perfect for short term defence and securing the logistics line back home. Now, at least on what has been described, SEM holds the passes and has the time to move the heavier stuff through and into position to keep the termini for as long as nessisary. It also really puts a major crimp in the SL commercial traffic since it forces the SL flagged ships to have to use hypespace even within a large number of the routes "within" the SL space.

SL is going to loose a lot of ships and personel trying to take those wormholes back. Emphais on TRY.

Jonathan_S wrote:Wasn't the Andermani terminus defended by the RMN?

Yes. Manticore had a pre-existing treaty with the nearby planetary system that gave them ownership of the Gregor junction.

The Andermani respected the treaty as part of the agreement that absorbed that planetary system into their empire.

So there, the RMN controls the security of the junction, and the Andermani control the security of the populace.


My 2 cents on the whole thing.

You want forts at the junctions because any other way of defending it will tempt the CO into sending them off to do something else. The inability of forts to rapidly charge off to meet some other threat is a feature, not a bug. It ensures that the kind of attack attempted at 2nd Basilisk is pointless. This frees your hyper-capable garrison for defense of the system, letting all junctions look after themselves.

solbergb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Wasn't the Andermani terminus defended by the RMN?

Yes. Manticore had a pre-existing treaty with the nearby planetary system that gave them ownership of the Gregor junction.

The Andermani respected the treaty as part of the agreement that absorbed that planetary system into their empire.

So there, the RMN controls the security of the junction, and the Andermani control the security of the populace.


My 2 cents on the whole thing.

You want forts at the junctions because any other way of defending it will tempt the CO into sending them off to do something else. The inability of forts to rapidly charge off to meet some other threat is a feature, not a bug. It ensures that the kind of attack attempted at 2nd Basilisk is pointless. This frees your hyper-capable garrison for defense of the system, letting all junctions look after themselves.

I agree that you want forts on the junction, but how about this: Add a merchant quality hyper generator and a small set of sails. You than could move the forts through the junction from one termini to another.

That just defeats the purpose of the fort in the first place. The fort is effective because it does away with things that a starship would need, like hyper generators and alpha nodes.

Duckk wrote:That just defeats the purpose of the fort in the first place. The fort is effective because it does away with things that a starship would need, like hyper generators and alpha nodes.

I am not sugesting using a warship/courrier quality hyper generator. You would not need even a merchant quality hyper generator, as all you need to do is get into the wormhole. That is the equivilant of a generator that can get you into the alpha band.

I am not sugesting using a warship/courrier quality warsawaski sail. You would not need even a merchant quality sail, as all you need to do is stabelize the flight through the wormhole. Theoretically, a courrier boats sail might work, more than likely you would need something slightly larger, such as the sail from a 1m ton tramp freighter.

Such a configuration would probably lower the combat capability by 1%-2% or so, but the tactical flexibilty to move the forts from termini to termini should outweight that consideration. Then there is the fact that the forts would all be manufactured in manticore orbit, making them cheeper to produce, which should outweigh the minor loss in combat power or the slightly larger size.