MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware

This may be a bit off topic, but assuming the safehold map, and implied temperature pattern holds true don't we have a permafrost problem. I've spent many years near the arctic circle and spring warming, and mud. I don't mean a little mud, but ankle to calf deep mud. Any rapid movement at the end of winter is contra indicated. You move before the mud season, and then after the mud season. And yes I did not mention the spring floods that go with snow pack melt.

The timing of the next offensive by the church forces , and their opponents is going to depend on local weather, this will impact the canals -at least the forces trying to get to the canals. I know we have terra formed landscapes, high roads etc - but -

Does any one else think its strange that Weber has two series where canals are givern a central position. IN the WAr GOd series, a canal is being made through dangerous territory, it will bring agreat deal of trade, and affect the political playing field.
THere are two canal systems that are imporant in safehold at the moment.
THe sarthar to Jahras Canal, and the canal system in the republic.
THey need to help the army to take and hold tthese canals in the republic. If enough of the guns are ammo is given to the locks, then they could be held for long periods. The inquisition likly has orders to destroy the locks to ensure they cant be captures, but that is with a conventional attack. Speedy attack via iron clads could push them on the defensive.
I wonder if the church could eb convinced to expand the Great canal themselves. If made big enough for all ships then, huge source of money for thier coffers. Once started, charis could then steal it.
SO far only the republic is an ally, I wonder if the canal coul get silkiah on line.

Hi Chickladoria,

Excellent point!

It wasn't just general winter that defeated the Germans in the soviet union in WW2, it was 'general mud', and of the two, the worst according to the Germans was 'general mud'.
Indeed the "flight forward" was after November 7th, 1941; IIRC, when the ground froze so their vehicles could move again.
Given the continental climate RFC has arranged, how mud becomes a factor will be very interesting.

Thanks for your background experience too.

L

chickladoria wrote:This may be a bit off topic, but assuming the safehold map, and implied temperature pattern holds true don't we have a permafrost problem. I've spent many years near the arctic circle and spring warming, and mud. I don't mean a little mud, but ankle to calf deep mud. Any rapid movement at the end of winter is contra indicated. You move before the mud season, and then after the mud season. And yes I did not mention the spring floods that go with snow pack melt.

The timing of the next offensive by the church forces , and their opponents is going to depend on local weather, this will impact the canals -at least the forces trying to get to the canals. I know we have terra formed landscapes, high roads etc - but -

Thank you, Lyonheart and Chickladoria! I hadn't considered mud in my analysis of overland v canal transport.

If the Army fo God invades as soon as they are able, they can get as far foprward as the rebelling provinces by mid to late summer. This means canals only until the roads firm up. This also means that Charis cannot get their heavy weapons into the interior without canals until after the Army of God have pretty much secured the rebellious regions. The timing works out well to have solid defensive lines built on both sides.

The big issues will be if the canals freeze or not and can dragon drawn wagons move enough freight to keep the army fed.

If the canals can be kept open somehow or the latitude is low enough to have relatively mild winters, then Charis has to take and hold key canals and or canal junctions and force the use of wagons. This forces the AoG to go into the open and expose themselves to Charisian bolt action rifles where fire from cover will add significant force multipliers.

If the winter does freeze, charis has to take the canals before the harvest comes in and again force the AoG to rely on overland supply. In this scenario, Charis will have shorter overland supply routes due to their access of the sea. They have shorter distances from the shore to any prospective canals where AoG forces may be than the AoG to their sources of supply.

The interesting element will be when the Desnari force shows up. Givent he description of "General Mud", the Desnari wont move in until late spring or early summer. They wont be in place until late summer, just in time to begin depleting supplies in a big way.

I wonder if Cayleb lets them into Siddermark or hits them before the forces combine? Does he use the marine/ICA force from the naval force destroying Gorath to move through the Selkar canal and raid the supply lines of the AoG? Does he keep that force in reserve until after the Desnari force retreats and then hits them in Silkiah/North Watch?

I hope that the ICN takes an island or two for bases in Gorath Bay build it up like beavers to distract the G4. When the Desnari force retreats sail in and catch them crossing North Watch.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Chickladoria,

Excellent point!

It wasn't just general winter that defeated the Germans in the soviet union in WW2, it was 'general mud', and of the two, the worst according to the Germans was 'general mud'.
Indeed the "flight forward" was after November 7th, 1941; IIRC, when the ground froze so their vehicles could move again.
Given the continental climate RFC has arranged, how mud becomes a factor will be very interesting.

Thanks for your background experience too.

L

chickladoria wrote:This may be a bit off topic, but assuming the safehold map, and implied temperature pattern holds true don't we have a permafrost problem. I've spent many years near the arctic circle and spring warming, and mud. I don't mean a little mud, but ankle to calf deep mud. Any rapid movement at the end of winter is contra indicated. You move before the mud season, and then after the mud season. And yes I did not mention the spring floods that go with snow pack melt.

The timing of the next offensive by the church forces , and their opponents is going to depend on local weather, this will impact the canals -at least the forces trying to get to the canals. I know we have terra formed landscapes, high roads etc - but -

runsforcelery wrote:Machinery: twin-screw, double expansion engines; 4 Delthak Works watertube boilers (260 psi).

You can certainly see Merlin/Owls hand in that choice.

That's jumping Charis over several generations of boiler design. I'm pretty sure the boiler designs in using in warships during the American Civil War were the older firetube designs; so this thing has higher tech machinery than ACW riverine ironclads.

For that matter that's slightly higher working pressure that HMS Dreadnaught (although a lot fewer boilers). She had eighteen Babcock and Wilcox water-tube boilers with a working pressure of 250 psi.

Impressive!

http://www.garylucy.com/sprague.html

IMHO we will see something like THIS...

Captain Igloo wrote:http://www.garylucy.com/sprague.html

IMHO we will see something like THIS...

No, we won't. Chais is using propellers, not paddle wheels. Second, these are warships, not passenger vessels. As was pointed out, the tech is 1905 (at least) levels. Finally, these have a far deeper draft than a Mississippi steamer. Remember, 11 feet of freeboard.

About the only thing "Civil War" about it is the sloping casement. Remember, 1860s turrets jammed constantly. The revolving gear is tricky. That's why even ships built in 1914 had remnants of a broadside. Another solution was a stationary turret with a revolving gun inside ( the turrets had gun ports).

PeterZ wrote:Thank you, Lyonheart and Chickladoria! I hadn't considered mud in my analysis of overland v canal transport.

If the Army fo God invades as soon as they are able, they can get as far foprward as the rebelling provinces by mid to late summer. This means canals only until the roads firm up. This also means that Charis cannot get their heavy weapons into the interior without canals until after the Army of God have pretty much secured the rebellious regions. The timing works out well to have solid defensive lines built on both sides.

The big issues will be if the canals freeze or not and can dragon drawn wagons move enough freight to keep the army fed.

If the canals can be kept open somehow or the latitude is low enough to have relatively mild winters, then Charis has to take and hold key canals and or canal junctions and force the use of wagons. This forces the AoG to go into the open and expose themselves to Charisian bolt action rifles where fire from cover will add significant force multipliers.

If the winter does freeze, charis has to take the canals before the harvest comes in and again force the AoG to rely on overland supply. In this scenario, Charis will have shorter overland supply routes due to their access of the sea. They have shorter distances from the shore to any prospective canals where AoG forces may be than the AoG to their sources of supply.

The interesting element will be when the Desnari force shows up. Givent he description of "General Mud", the Desnari wont move in until late spring or early summer. They wont be in place until late summer, just in time to begin depleting supplies in a big way.

I wonder if Cayleb lets them into Siddermark or hits them before the forces combine? Does he use the marine/ICA force from the naval force destroying Gorath to move through the Selkar canal and raid the supply lines of the AoG? Does he keep that force in reserve until after the Desnari force retreats and then hits them in Silkiah/North Watch?

I hope that the ICN takes an island or two for bases in Gorath Bay build it up like beavers to distract the G4. When the Desnari force retreats sail in and catch them crossing North Watch.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Chickladoria,

Excellent point!

It wasn't just general winter that defeated the Germans in the soviet union in WW2, it was 'general mud', and of the two, the worst according to the Germans was 'general mud'.
Indeed the "flight forward" was after November 7th, 1941; IIRC, when the ground froze so their vehicles could move again.
Given the continental climate RFC has arranged, how mud becomes a factor will be very interesting.

Thanks for your background experience too.

L

chickladoria wrote:This may be a bit off topic, but assuming the safehold map, and implied temperature pattern holds true don't we have a permafrost problem. I've spent many years near the arctic circle and spring warming, and mud. I don't mean a little mud, but ankle to calf deep mud. Any rapid movement at the end of winter is contra indicated. You move before the mud season, and then after the mud season. And yes I did not mention the spring floods that go with snow pack melt.

The timing of the next offensive by the church forces , and their opponents is going to depend on local weather, this will impact the canals -at least the forces trying to get to the canals. I know we have terra formed landscapes, high roads etc - but -

In looking at the map of Siddarmark, I suspect that the northern canals will freeze solid and the southern canals may or may not freeze or may freeze and thaw repeatedly during the winter. Back many decades ago when I was just starting my working career, I used to work with a bunch of what I viewed at the time as 'old fossils'. A few of these were farmers and had their farms either on or close to the Connecticut River about 15 miles south of Hartford CT. They told me the following story: when they were children, in the winter, after the CT River frozen solid, their parents used to hitch up sleds to their horses and they used to take rides up to Hartford and back carrying people and some amount of goods. The moral of this story is that a solidly frozen canal may still be useful as a transportation route in the middle of the winter. It will just depend on how much load carrying capacity the ice has.

Hi EarlyDryGulch,

The combat draft for the 'river' ironclads is 6', the 11 feet figure is their ocean draft when their coal and endurance is more than twice as much.

The tech is hardly 1905 level since they're still using muzzle loaders etc, though RFC warned us Housemyn was pushing well past the early boiler designs and avoiding all the mistakes, at least in his production units.

I think RFC was well aware of what 260 psi meant when he drew so much attention to it.

A 904 mile range with a 6 foot draft means a few such could cover most of a continent since they could travel several hundred miles on the way to the specific river, keeping in mind most rivers aren't navigable to ocean crossing types more than a hundred miles up.

While one could patrol rivers until mines are reinvented by the Go4 etc, I expect them to perform in squadron sized actions against the remnants of temple naval power and production that can't be done by the regular wooden navy.

L

Earldrygulch wrote:

Captain Igloo wrote:http://www.garylucy.com/sprague.html

IMHO we will see something like THIS...

No, we won't. Chais is using propellers, not paddle wheels. Second, these are warships, not passenger vessels. As was pointed out, the tech is 1905 (at least) levels. Finally, these have a far deeper draft than a Mississippi steamer. Remember, 11 feet of freeboard.

About the only thing "Civil War" about it is the sloping casement. Remember, 1860s turrets jammed constantly. The revolving gear is tricky. That's why even ships built in 1914 had remnants of a broadside. Another solution was a stationary turret with a revolving gun inside ( the turrets had gun ports).

ok i have a question.... are these listed endurance at the design load out or maximum?

Bunkerage: 480 tons (design); 1,172 tons (maximum)

Endurance: 904 miles/1,900 miles @ 9.5 knots/mph

because if it is at design, then their maximum range before they have to go coaling is a little over 4,600 miles @ 9.5 knots.....

ofcorse trying to fight the ship with a maximum load out might be a bit lively....