MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware

Emo Otaku wrote:As has been suggested i think that the original construction of safehold would have included an extensive canal network, at least in the area's planned to be most populous, the advantages to a pre-industrial society are just too obvious to be overlooked.

Island nations like Charis, Chisholm and Corisande would have not had a high a priority as has been said they would have have found sea transport easier than canals, especially as the interiors of many of these island is quite hilly if not completely Mountainous.

But what we are also overlooking is that despite the original planners technological advancement (or even because of it) they wouldn't have had a true feel for what was actually required by a pre-industrial safehold society, so they were working on best guess (even with advanced simulations)

Plus the the canal network would probably have been planned to last no more than a few centuries before technology was supposed to be re-introduced. Langhorns interferance interupted that plan and meant that population centres have probably grown up in places the original planners would never have imagined, none of which are included on the canal network.

FriarBob wrote:I'm somewhat surprised nobody else noticed this little tidbit RFC dropped in as an "aside".

runsforcelery wrote:As another aside, the availability/non-availability of canal transportation had a lot to do with who was able to build (and arm) their allotted galleons on schedule, as will become evident when/if you see a map of the actual canal network.

Am I crazy, or does this seem like a HUGE hint to me? We know that Desnair was able to build their ships, but to only put somewhat "average" armament on them (good with the bronze guns but rather craptastic iron guns), though their quantity must obviously have been quite decent since there was at least some tentative plans to put Desnarian guns on the Harchong galleons Harpahr brought with him. We know that the Temple Lands both built and quite adequately armed their ships, even if the gun sizes were craptastic by Charisian standards. And we know that Dohlar not only built and armed their own ships but actually exported excess guns to Harchong, who were able to build their ships just fine but were apparently flat-out putrid at trying to arm them.

Based on this info, it would seem that Desnair, Dohlar, and the Temple Lands must all have extensive canal systems. We don't know the details yet, but it explains a lot about why Charis' huge technological advantage isn't enough to just snow the mainland under (yet, at least). But also remember that building a canal by hand-labor is very expensive, both in time and financial/labor costs. Even with gunpowder it's still not as easy as falling off a log, though no doubt in the last 100 years or so the networks have been significantly improved.

Siddarmark is obviously unmentioned, but we know they were at least a bit of an economic powerhouse, such that they could afford to build canals just to transport a relatively minor export like coal. Not that coal was unimportant, of course. I called it "relatively minor" because all previous textev sounded to me like wheat and cotton were by far Siddarmark's largest exports. That didn't make the coal unimportant, just "second tier" or lower. And that further suggests that they must have a LOT of canals (or rivers, or both) for transporting their grain harvests about. And that further suggests that those steam-powered ironclad riverboats that got this whole thread started might well have been designed expressly for the upcoming land war in Siddarmark. Perhaps this is how RFC plans to keep the Temple forces from overrunning Siddarmark, by using ironclad riverboats to interdict key canals to prevent the church from moving sufficient forces forward fast enough. Or perhaps not.

But look at the huge glaring omission from that earlier list: Harchong. If Harchong's inability to arm their ships comes from the fact that they don't have sufficient canal networks in place, the obvious followup question is "why the hell not?" Because they have a HUGE labor force, even if horribly inefficient and unmotivated by anything but the lash. But even with raw muscle power alone they ought to be able to build at least some canals. Then add in that at least according to OAR they were the source of developing gunpowder as well and you have to ask "OK, maybe you didn't have them before, but why didn't you start building them once you bribed gunpowder's way through the inquisition?"

Weber is hinting at something here. And I don't know what. Or why. But I think it might well be something pretty big.

Or maybe it's just that Harchong is so heavily mountainous that there's no ability to build the canals they need. But even if that's all he's implying, it still answers at least in part why they apparently have such a huge population but such a craptastic economy.

kbus888 wrote:Hi lyonheart

I believe the new ironclads (at least the first two mentioned in <RFC>'s post) WILL be used before book #7.

I think it is our history, in any war situation, to use every possible advantage at the earliest possible time.

If the two iron clad river boats are built in book #6 (which the post implies) I believe it will be used in that book.

?? Comments ??

R

PeterZ wrote:Look at the jiltanith map for Safehold. All the Harchong locations that couldn't complete their quota of ships were supplied by the Desolation Mountains in all likelihood. Most of the northern Harchong coast is a relatively narrow strip of land between Hsing-wu's Passage and the Desolation Mountains. Why would canals be built? They could use the passage to carry ore to their northern yards.

IIRC, there were two issues. First, Harchong relied on many small forges. Second, the winter freezes the passage solid. The distribution system was less efficient than Dohlar's due to the greater number of forges and the time available to distribute the ore was also more limited. Had Harchong concentrated their forges and smelters, they may have been able to pace Dohlar's and Ithrya's production. As it was the Harchong navy could not manage all those dispersed locations well enough to improve the average production to keep pace with the other naval yards.

That's my take away, anyway.

runsforcelery wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hello PeterZ,

Thanks for your kind response.

I've always presumed there were many canals on Haven and Howard, just that we've had no detailed map or textev confirmation other than passing references.

However one of my points was that why didn't we hear about the Silkiah canal earlier, such as in OAR?

Such a canal would have dramatically affected trade enough to be at least mentioned, and given how much smaller ships crossed the Atlantic with Columbus, the maximum possible size ships to use the Silkian canal would have been a cap on ship size for decades if not centuries, and probably mentioned in the background, yes?

Especially since I think most if not all of Dohlar's galleys could have fitted through the 20' draft cited for the canal, not to mention its width; and even if they could have done it fully laded as I expect, it would have been very easy for them to unload almost everything onto a barge they or somebody towed behind them through the canal to be sure they could use the canal, then reloaded once they reached the Gulf of Mathyas, then on to Tarot, very quickly etc.

Only there's not a hint of anything close to that even suggested, may I ask why?

Now its quite possible the canal was down for renovation or repair (and everybody in OAR knew it except us the readers); no mention yet of any locks that might need repair, but there could also have been a a landslide or slump that collapsed part of the canal, or an earthquake that ruined some locks etc, or a mud volcano that blocked an entrance, but given its importance, it should have received some mention in passing why they were going around Howard when they might have taken a short cut if the canal had been up.

All this time we've been discussing, sometimes strongly whether there was any isthmian canal; and apparently there always has been, not quite where it seemed most likely, but there nonetheless, so any hint would have been very much appreciated.

I realize RFC needs to keep his creative options open, and I very much sympathize, still some cards may have been held too close.

The Silkiah canal would be at least twice as long as the suggested Jahras canal, and thus be subject to tidal effects, which could effect its utility if all traffic were grounded once or twice a day, which could also affect what kind of ships could use it unless they were put into dry-dock type cradles on a known schedule along the canal.

While Silkiah has some independence despite being a tributary of Desnar, how it has been able to skirt the embargo without a large army of its own is worth some further explanation, hopefully in MTaT.

The proximity of Desnar to the canal might also be a factor of international interest, but given the temple's overriding power, the Silkian's interests have been ignored until now, but that could change dramatically by #7.

Protected and Armored cruisers could very well appear in #7 as the obvious force multipliers you suggest, while the ironclads actually see action; since the first steam engine will finally appear in MTaT, it will be awhile before the production can supply the ironclads, as I strongly doubt they are first in line.

If the ironclads aren't used to take and open the canal to the EoC in #7 etc, I will be surprised.

L

PeterZ wrote:I suspect he will answer most of these questions in the stories, Lyonheart.

The parts of your post that most interest me are in Bold.

Ever since the Gulf of Jahras was mapped in detail, I suspected that some sort of cannal existed. The description of the cannals connecting Glacierheart and Siddar, the emerging infodumps regarding the size of mainland cities and the fact that no other mainland super power had developed a navy to protect their cargo ships all suggested that there must be an extensive cannal system on the mainland. RFC mentions it only in passing but the broader logistical capabilities he does mention do depend on those cannals.

My gut tells me that Silkiah's cannal does have enough capacity to manage the length and width of ocean going ships. The key issue will be daft. Think about the volume of trade that was flowing from Siddermark to the Gulf of Dohlar; food from the Siddermark farms, coal from Glacierheart and perhaps even ore from the other mines of Siddermark. If that cannal required locks, those locks may have been large enough to handle a long enough ship if she had a shallow enouugh draft. The bigger the lock the more barges could be sent through at any one time.

Since the locks are located in Silkiah, and the Silkiahns are a bit sensitive about being referred to as Desnairian, and Silkiah adopted the same subtrifuge as Siddermark regarding Charisian marchantmen suggests to me that Silkiah and Siddermark are more closely alligned than Silkiah is with any other mainland nation. By the time gunpowder was developed Desnair and Siddermark were competing for lebensraum. No way would Desnair facilitiate Siddrmark's access to the west coasts of Howard and Haven. Silkiah would only facilitate that if they had good relations with Siddermark. This is all inferential, but stitches together well.

As for the protected cruisers, I think it is very much a case of concentrating firepower in as few platforms as possible. This will allow the ICN to project power equal to or greater than a squadron of ICN Frigates while using only the manpower of a single ship. The only reason this becomes crucial is that the land war phase is on the horizon. The freed up personnel will be needed in the army or the factories.

So I see the Gwyllym Manthyr and King Haarald being launched by the end of Safehold #7 at the latest. Very likely they will begin construction in MTaT.

EDIT: Spelling


SNIPPED 4 quote reasons


You know,l I apologize for not doing what you expected.

The Dohlaran galleys could have passed through the canal except for two tiny problems.

(1) The (already existing) canal was specificazlly demilitarized when the Grand Duchy of Silkiah was created. (It was also one of the reasons Silkiah was seen as such a prize by both sides, although it was never intended to pass oceanic traffic.)

(2) The Church could have set aside the demilitarization in Dohlar's case . . . but not without coming out into the open from behind the "Knights of the Temple Lands." Remember them? Besides, all it was going to cost them were maybe a dozen or so Dohlaran galleys (and their crews) lost at sea, so there was certainly never any reason to worry about opening the canal anyway, right?

The Grand Duchy was created by the Church because the Church was afraid of Siddarmark's ability to potentially conquer Desnair, and it was intended that Silkiah would be very much the Church's creature. The Silkiahns almost immediately bean slipping out from under the Church's thumb --- one of the consequences of the Church's seccular involvement was that seccular realms started mnaking seccular calculations where the Church's seccular ambitions were concerned. As a result, the trinity of realms worrying the Church were Siddarmark, Charis, and (to a lesser extent) Silkiah. The whole reason for hiding behind the Knights of the Temple Lands was to prevent anything suggesting a religious component, The notion that the Church felt threatened had to be avoided, and ordering Silkiah to allow a Dohlaran fleet to pass through a canal which had been specifically demilitarized by the Church's own orders would have made the true stakes much more abundantly obvious than they wanted to . . . especially when they obviously weren't going to need the canal in the first place, since they could always send the coastal galleys on a several thousand-mile blue-water voyage, instead. No skin off their ecclesiastic noses if a few of them sank along the way, after all..

I suppose I might have brought the canal front and center in the first book, but I knew it wasn't going to be used --- and why --- and it simply didin't occur to me to tell you about it. Sorry about that. I guess it's just a little more evidence that even authors are fallible.

Obviously, the Church isn't going to worry about demilitarization of canals at this point, but blue-water galleons aren't going to fit through it too well. The older canals have smaller locks than more recent ones, and this is quite an old one . . . which is why I made the point in an earlierpost that they might beable to get small galleys through it.

Captain Igloo wrote:IIRC, they discussed iron plates and the described production process (pig-iron) is consistent for wrought-iron or crucible steel. No Bessemer converters or open-hearth furnaces were mentioned.

IMHO Howsmyn will invent the open-hearth furnace in the next book - he needs at least one for the plates of the "River" ironclads. Depends on the available iron ore: The acid Bessemer process was limited to processing the sorts of pig iron which were free of phosphorus but rich in silicon (for generating heat!). At the same time, however, it was and is often overlooked that the refining process in the basic (Thomas) converter was not at all suited to every kind of phosphoric pig iron. To generate the necessary heat the phosphorus content had to be at least 1.7 per cent, a high content which was not present in most sorts of pig iron.

Consequently the Thomas process, like the Bessemer process, remained limited to particular sorts of pig iron.