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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware | |
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by warchild » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:54 am | |
warchild
Posts: 37
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Hi Lyonheart,
From how I read RFC's post it sounds like most of the out islands (Charis, Emerald, Chrisholm, Corisande, and Zebediah) dont have an extensive Canal network like the Mainlands do. This sounds like it is due to the fact that the terraforming team had made most of the Canal network on the mainland and felt that the Islands wouldnt need them. And that they are surrounded by water which makes shipping stuff around it the easier if most of the towns/cities are on the edge of the islands. They also havent had the population to create a large canal network themselfs nor do they have the population density to make building calans all over worth the work. Remember that in Chrisholm that it was(i believe, i'll dig through the book later to confirm) Sharleyan's father that created the Canals the connected the two lakes just north of Cherayth together and to the ocean. And that seemed to be quite a large undertaking to complete. |
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware | |
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by Captain Igloo » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:05 am | |
Captain Igloo
Posts: 269
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"... drew his eyes to the Tairys Canal, frozen hard now, which connected the city to the Graywater River. The Graywater was navigable — for barge traffic, at least — for most of its fourhundred-mile length, although there were several spots where locks had been required. It linked Ice Lake, northwest of Tairys, with Glacierborn Lake, two hundred miles to the southwest. From there, the mighty Siddar River ran sixteen hundred miles, snaking through the final mountains of Glacierheart, then through the foothills of Shiloh Province, and into Old Province to the capital city of Siddar itself. Which meant barges of Glacierheart coal could be floated down the rivers all the way to Siddar, where it could be loaded aboard coasters and blue- water galleons for destinations all over the world."
A Mighty Fortress, Chapter VII The economics of canal business were simple. Eight horses formerly were needed to haul a wagon weighing six and a half tons, whereas a single horse walking along a towpath could move with little effort a loaded barge weighing almost thirty tons. In 1800 some forty-two canals consisting of 1400 miles of waterways crisscrossed Great Britain. By 1858 Great Britain had constructed 4250 miles of canals. Canals, on the other hand, cost between $8,000 to $25,000 per mile, depending on the terrain, and took a decade or longer to construct. The United States only had about 100 miles of canals in operation in 1816, and most of them were only several miles in length. |
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware | |
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by PeterZ » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:06 pm | |
PeterZ
Posts: 6432
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I suspect he will answer most of these questions in the stories, Lyonheart.
The parts of your post that most interest me are in Bold. Ever since the Gulf of Jahras was mapped in detail, I suspected that some sort of cannal existed. The description of the cannals connecting Glacierheart and Siddar, the emerging infodumps regarding the size of mainland cities and the fact that no other mainland super power had developed a navy to protect their cargo ships all suggested that there must be an extensive cannal system on the mainland. RFC mentions it only in passing but the broader logistical capabilities he does mention do depend on those cannals. My gut tells me that Silkiah's cannal does have enough capacity to manage the length and width of ocean going ships. The key issue will be daft. Think about the volume of trade that was flowing from Siddermark to the Gulf of Dohlar; food from the Siddermark farms, coal from Glacierheart and perhaps even ore from the other mines of Siddermark. If that cannal required locks, those locks may have been large enough to handle a long enough ship if she had a shallow enouugh draft. The bigger the lock the more barges could be sent through at any one time. Since the locks are located in Silkiah, and the Silkiahns are a bit sensitive about being referred to as Desnairian, and Silkiah adopted the same subtrifuge as Siddermark regarding Charisian marchantmen suggests to me that Silkiah and Siddermark are more closely alligned than Silkiah is with any other mainland nation. By the time gunpowder was developed Desnair and Siddermark were competing for lebensraum. No way would Desnair facilitiate Siddrmark's access to the west coasts of Howard and Haven. Silkiah would only facilitate that if they had good relations with Siddermark. This is all inferential, but stitches together well. As for the protected cruisers, I think it is very much a case of concentrating firepower in as few platforms as possible. This will allow the ICN to project power equal to or greater than a squadron of ICN Frigates while using only the manpower of a single ship. The only reason this becomes crucial is that the land war phase is on the horizon. The freed up personnel will be needed in the army or the factories. So I see the Gwyllym Manthyr and King Haarald being launched by the end of Safehold #7 at the latest. Very likely they will begin construction in MTaT. EDIT: Spelling
Last edited by PeterZ on Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware | |
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by Montrose Toast » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:11 pm | |
Montrose Toast
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Nit: 1.15165 statue miles = 1 NM. 6,080 feet per NM vice the 5280 in a statue mile. a KM is 0.577 NM. A common rounding is to call a NM 2,000 yards but, that is not accurate. NM is based on 1 minute of Latitude - 60NM to the degree of Latitude. Since they are not on Earth, I suppose the definition could have changed to fit the new planet... "Who Dares Wins"
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware | |
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by Captain Igloo » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:56 pm | |
Captain Igloo
Posts: 269
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Well, lets have a look on a real-world canal:
The Erie canal was cut to a uniform depth of four feet with a width at the bottom of twenty-eight feet and at the top of seventy feet. Boats initially hauled a maximum of thirty tons of freight, moved along by draught animals (horses, mules, or oxen) being led by a person walking along the towpath on the bank of the canal. The huge volume of traffic on the Erie canal resulted in two major enlargement projects. The first occurred between the years 1836 and 1872. This expansion widened the original canal to seventy feet, increased its depth to seven feet, reduced the number of locks to seventy-two, and allowed boats to haul 250 tons of cargo. The second enlargement took place beginning in 1903 and resulted in a canal of 120 to 200 feet in width, twelve to fourteen feet in depth, and meant that boats hauling 3,000 tons of cargo could pass safely along the canal. The reduction of transportation costs was immediate. Prior to the Erie Canal, the precarious overland shipment of wheat, corn, and oats from western New York State to New York City cost between three and ten times the value of the crops. In financial terms it had cost between $90 to $125 a ton to ship cargo between Buffalo and New York City. By 1835 the canal alternative had reduced that amount to $4 a ton. As another point of comparison, before 1820 it cost about 20 cents a ton-mile to ship goods from Buffalo to New York. By 1855 the canal had dramatically reduced the cost by more than 90% to just shy of one cent a ton-mile. (Source: Wyatt, The Industrial Revolution)
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware | |
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by FriarBob » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:46 pm | |
FriarBob
Posts: 1061
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I'm somewhat surprised nobody else noticed this little tidbit RFC dropped in as an "aside".
Am I crazy, or does this seem like a HUGE hint to me? We know that Desnair was able to build their ships, but to only put somewhat "average" armament on them (good with the bronze guns but rather craptastic iron guns), though their quantity must obviously have been quite decent since there was at least some tentative plans to put Desnarian guns on the Harchong galleons Harpahr brought with him. We know that the Temple Lands both built and quite adequately armed their ships, even if the gun sizes were craptastic by Charisian standards. And we know that Dohlar not only built and armed their own ships but actually exported excess guns to Harchong, who were able to build their ships just fine but were apparently flat-out putrid at trying to arm them. Based on this info, it would seem that Desnair, Dohlar, and the Temple Lands must all have extensive canal systems. We don't know the details yet, but it explains a lot about why Charis' huge technological advantage isn't enough to just snow the mainland under (yet, at least). But also remember that building a canal by hand-labor is very expensive, both in time and financial/labor costs. Even with gunpowder it's still not as easy as falling off a log, though no doubt in the last 100 years or so the networks have been significantly improved. Siddarmark is obviously unmentioned, but we know they were at least a bit of an economic powerhouse, such that they could afford to build canals just to transport a relatively minor export like coal. Not that coal was unimportant, of course. I called it "relatively minor" because all previous textev sounded to me like wheat and cotton were by far Siddarmark's largest exports. That didn't make the coal unimportant, just "second tier" or lower. And that further suggests that they must have a LOT of canals (or rivers, or both) for transporting their grain harvests about. And that further suggests that those steam-powered ironclad riverboats that got this whole thread started might well have been designed expressly for the upcoming land war in Siddarmark. Perhaps this is how RFC plans to keep the Temple forces from overrunning Siddarmark, by using ironclad riverboats to interdict key canals to prevent the church from moving sufficient forces forward fast enough. Or perhaps not. But look at the huge glaring omission from that earlier list: Harchong. If Harchong's inability to arm their ships comes from the fact that they don't have sufficient canal networks in place, the obvious followup question is "why the hell not?" Because they have a HUGE labor force, even if horribly inefficient and unmotivated by anything but the lash. But even with raw muscle power alone they ought to be able to build at least some canals. Then add in that at least according to OAR they were the source of developing gunpowder as well and you have to ask "OK, maybe you didn't have them before, but why didn't you start building them once you bribed gunpowder's way through the inquisition?" Weber is hinting at something here. And I don't know what. Or why. But I think it might well be something pretty big. Or maybe it's just that Harchong is so heavily mountainous that there's no ability to build the canals they need. But even if that's all he's implying, it still answers at least in part why they apparently have such a huge population but such a craptastic economy. |
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware | |
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by lyonheart » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:18 am | |
lyonheart
Posts: 4853
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Hello PeterZ,
Thanks for your kind response. I've always presumed there were many canals on Haven and Howard, just that we've had no detailed map or textev confirmation other than passing references. However one of my points was that why didn't we hear about the Silkiah canal earlier, such as in OAR? Such a canal would have dramatically affected trade enough to be at least mentioned, and given how much smaller ships crossed the Atlantic with Columbus, the maximum possible size ships to use the Silkian canal would have been a cap on ship size for decades if not centuries, and probably mentioned in the background, yes? Especially since I think most if not all of Dohlar's galleys could have fitted through the 20' draft cited for the canal, not to mention its width; and even if they could have done it fully laded as I expect, it would have been very easy for them to unload almost everything onto a barge they or somebody towed behind them through the canal to be sure they could use the canal, then reloaded once they reached the Gulf of Mathyas, then on to Tarot, very quickly etc. Only there's not a hint of anything close to that even suggested, may I ask why? Now its quite possible the canal was down for renovation or repair (and everybody in OAR knew it except us the readers); no mention yet of any locks that might need repair, but there could also have been a a landslide or slump that collapsed part of the canal, or an earthquake that ruined some locks etc, or a mud volcano that blocked an entrance, but given its importance, it should have received some mention in passing why they were going around Howard when they might have taken a short cut if the canal had been up. All this time we've been discussing, sometimes strongly whether there was any isthmian canal; and apparently there always has been, not quite where it seemed most likely, but there nonetheless, so any hint would have been very much appreciated. I realize RFC needs to keep his creative options open, and I very much sympathize, still some cards may have been held too close. The Silkiah canal would be at least twice as long as the suggested Jahras canal, and thus be subject to tidal effects, which could effect its utility if all traffic were grounded once or twice a day, which could also affect what kind of ships could use it unless they were put into dry-dock type cradles on a known schedule along the canal. While Silkiah has some independence despite being a tributary of Desnar, how it has been able to skirt the embargo without a large army of its own is worth some further explanation, hopefully in MTaT. The proximity of Desnar to the canal might also be a factor of international interest, but given the temple's overriding power, the Silkian's interests have been ignored until now, but that could change dramatically by #7. Protected and Armored cruisers could very well appear in #7 as the obvious force multipliers you suggest, while the ironclads actually see action; since the first steam engine will finally appear in MTaT, it will be awhile before the production can supply the ironclads, as I strongly doubt they are first in line. If the ironclads aren't used to take and open the canal to the EoC in #7 etc, I will be surprised. L
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware | |
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by runsforcelery » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:06 am | |
runsforcelery
Posts: 2425
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You know,l I apologize for not doing what you expected. The Dohlaran galleys could have passed through the canal except for two tiny problems. (1) The (already existing) canal was specificazlly demilitarized when the Grand Duchy of Silkiah was created. (It was also one of the reasons Silkiah was seen as such a prize by both sides, although it was never intended to pass oceanic traffic.) (2) The Church could have set aside the demilitarization in Dohlar's case . . . but not without coming out into the open from behind the "Knights of the Temple Lands." Remember them? Besides, all it was going to cost them were maybe a dozen or so Dohlaran galleys (and their crews) lost at sea, so there was certainly never any reason to worry about opening the canal anyway, right? The Grand Duchy was created by the Church because the Church was afraid of Siddarmark's ability to potentially conquer Desnair, and it was intended that Silkiah would be very much the Church's creature. The Silkiahns almost immediately bean slipping out from under the Church's thumb --- one of the consequences of the Church's seccular involvement was that seccular realms started mnaking seccular calculations where the Church's seccular ambitions were concerned. As a result, the trinity of realms worrying the Church were Siddarmark, Charis, and (to a lesser extent) Silkiah. The whole reason for hiding behind the Knights of the Temple Lands was to prevent anything suggesting a religious component, The notion that the Church felt threatened had to be avoided, and ordering Silkiah to allow a Dohlaran fleet to pass through a canal which had been specifically demilitarized by the Church's own orders would have made the true stakes much more abundantly obvious than they wanted to . . . especially when they obviously weren't going to need the canal in the first place, since they could always send the coastal galleys on a several thousand-mile blue-water voyage, instead. No skin off their ecclesiastic noses if a few of them sank along the way, after all.. I suppose I might have brought the canal front and center in the first book, but I knew it wasn't going to be used --- and why --- and it simply didin't occur to me to tell you about it. Sorry about that. I guess it's just a little more evidence that even authors are fallible. Obviously, the Church isn't going to worry about demilitarization of canals at this point, but blue-water galleons aren't going to fit through it too well. The older canals have smaller locks than more recent ones, and this is quite an old one . . . which is why I made the point in an earlierpost that they might beable to get small galleys through it. "Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead. |
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware | |
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by kbus888 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:39 am | |
kbus888
Posts: 1980
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Hi runsforcelery
You are a sneaky sneaky man sir !!! I love it ;) Your explanation just reeks of duplicity !!! I LOVE IT !!! SURE you "just forgot to mention canals in <OAR>" - - SURE you did. Keep up the excellent work R ..//* *\\
(/(..^..)\) .._/'*'\_ .(,,,)^(,,,) Love is a condition in which the happiness of another is essential to your own. - R Heinlein |
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware | |
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by PeterZ » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:48 am | |
PeterZ
Posts: 6432
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Sorry Lyonheart, but I think with holding the canal data was more important than simply providing us with more goodies to speculate over. You know those canals will dictate the overall strategy of a land war. Heck, they have been one of the key elements of Dohlar's success in developing a more modern navy.
If we had a map of the canals or even key canals, the startegy against Siddermark will be obvious. Any surprises he has planned for us will may very well appear contrived as a consequence. Heaven forbid such a turn of events! RFC did post that the Silkiah canal is too small for current ocean going galleons. If only small galleys could fit, a 2,000 ton frigate is out of the question and a 6,000 ton protected cruiser is truly out of the question regardless of draft. Bummer! I thought I was right on this one.
All of this does suggest that Charis will have to start developing their network of coaling stations/colonies. The question that comes to mind is who will they use to populate those colonies? The Harchong slave POWs? Siddermarkian refugees? Disaffected Imperial Charisian citizens? Whoever, the colonies have to get started soon if Gwyllym and King Haarald's name sakes are to be used by Safehold #7. So, where will MTaT show the first colony being started? I have my suspicions but would prefer to hear others first. Anyone?
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