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MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware

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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by warchild   » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:54 am

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Hi Lyonheart,

From how I read RFC's post it sounds like most of the out islands (Charis, Emerald, Chrisholm, Corisande, and Zebediah) dont have an extensive Canal network like the Mainlands do. This sounds like it is due to the fact that the terraforming team had made most of the Canal network on the mainland and felt that the Islands wouldnt need them. And that they are surrounded by water which makes shipping stuff around it the easier if most of the towns/cities are on the edge of the islands. They also havent had the population to create a large canal network themselfs nor do they have the population density to make building calans all over worth the work.

Remember that in Chrisholm that it was(i believe, i'll dig through the book later to confirm) Sharleyan's father that created the Canals the connected the two lakes just north of Cherayth together and to the ocean. And that seemed to be quite a large undertaking to complete.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by Captain Igloo   » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:05 am

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"... drew his eyes to the Tairys Canal, frozen hard now, which connected the city to the Graywater River. The Graywater was navigable — for barge traffic, at least — for most of its fourhundred-mile length, although there were several spots where locks had been required. It linked Ice Lake, northwest of Tairys, with Glacierborn Lake, two hundred miles to the southwest. From there, the mighty Siddar River ran sixteen hundred miles, snaking through the final mountains of Glacierheart, then through the foothills of Shiloh Province, and into Old Province to the capital city of Siddar itself. Which meant barges of Glacierheart coal could be floated down the rivers all the way to Siddar, where it could be loaded aboard coasters and blue- water galleons for destinations all over the world."

A Mighty Fortress, Chapter VII

The economics of canal business were simple. Eight horses formerly were needed to haul a wagon weighing six and a half tons, whereas a single horse walking along a towpath could move with little effort a loaded barge weighing almost thirty tons. In 1800 some forty-two canals consisting of 1400 miles of waterways crisscrossed Great Britain. By 1858 Great Britain had constructed 4250 miles of canals. Canals, on the other hand, cost between $8,000 to $25,000 per mile, depending on the terrain, and took a decade or longer to construct. The United States only had about 100 miles of canals in operation in 1816, and most of them were only several miles in length.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:06 pm

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I suspect he will answer most of these questions in the stories, Lyonheart.

The parts of your post that most interest me are in Bold.

Ever since the Gulf of Jahras was mapped in detail, I suspected that some sort of cannal existed. The description of the cannals connecting Glacierheart and Siddar, the emerging infodumps regarding the size of mainland cities and the fact that no other mainland super power had developed a navy to protect their cargo ships all suggested that there must be an extensive cannal system on the mainland. RFC mentions it only in passing but the broader logistical capabilities he does mention do depend on those cannals.

My gut tells me that Silkiah's cannal does have enough capacity to manage the length and width of ocean going ships. The key issue will be daft. Think about the volume of trade that was flowing from Siddermark to the Gulf of Dohlar; food from the Siddermark farms, coal from Glacierheart and perhaps even ore from the other mines of Siddermark. If that cannal required locks, those locks may have been large enough to handle a long enough ship if she had a shallow enouugh draft. The bigger the lock the more barges could be sent through at any one time.

Since the locks are located in Silkiah, and the Silkiahns are a bit sensitive about being referred to as Desnairian, and Silkiah adopted the same subtrifuge as Siddermark regarding Charisian marchantmen suggests to me that Silkiah and Siddermark are more closely alligned than Silkiah is with any other mainland nation. By the time gunpowder was developed Desnair and Siddermark were competing for lebensraum. No way would Desnair facilitiate Siddrmark's access to the west coasts of Howard and Haven. Silkiah would only facilitate that if they had good relations with Siddermark. This is all inferential, but stitches together well.

As for the protected cruisers, I think it is very much a case of concentrating firepower in as few platforms as possible. This will allow the ICN to project power equal to or greater than a squadron of ICN Frigates while using only the manpower of a single ship. The only reason this becomes crucial is that the land war phase is on the horizon. The freed up personnel will be needed in the army or the factories.

So I see the Gwyllym Manthyr and King Haarald being launched by the end of Safehold #7 at the latest. Very likely they will begin construction in MTaT.

EDIT: Spelling


lyonheart wrote:Hi RFC!

From past posts, I've made it clear Canals are very cool and important, so may we have more information concerning them, including maps, pretty please?

We haven't seen any rivers on the main map, which has been surprising given the role rivers have usually played in human history.

I'm very curious for why we haven't heard about the Silkiah canal before, such as in terms of a Silkiah canal limit on ship size among other things, and how it was built instead of the much shorter Gulf of Jahras canal.

Is there an unknown mountain range running north-south through the Northwatch province that made that route too expensive?
I thought it would have been one of the first things Shane-Wei would have built while terraforming, to speed commerce, which would push innovation, which was what she wanted.

Does Emerald have canals connecting its northern lakes with each other and the sea's, besides linking eventually with a southern river network to "stitch the country together"?

Does Chisholm have any continent spanning canals (or something near or close to it), or some combination of canals, rivers and roads etc that permit persons and cargo to cross the continent than poor roads all the way?

Does Zebediah have any canals?

There hasn't been any textev of Corisande having canals, is that the case?

What canals does Charis have?
The bulk of the island continent seem potentially far away from Tellesberg in time and culture.
Are any canals in prospect to link Margaret's land with Charis proper?
Is there a canal linking the Charis west coast to Howell bay or Tellesberg?

Is there a canal connecting Tranjyr in Tarot with its South or eastern coast, to speed commerce from Charis, perhaps by joining a couple of rivers with the lake and an aqueduct topping the connecting canals off?

Most rivers aren't navigable beyond a hundred miles upstream, so the 904 mile steaming radius may be less for going up river than covering a considerable part of the coast; so a relative handful might patrol or control a continent's navigable rivers.

The ironclad's crew may not man all the guns at once unless the hydraulic recoil systems cut the gun crew size more than I've figured, but how many rivers are wide enough for the ironclad to turn and aim its broadsides a hundred miles upstream?

Does Charis need armored or protected cruisers right now when the Go4 is so far behind technologically?

I don't think so, although some experimental types are or will be under construction.

Anyone care to add more questions?

L


Last edited by PeterZ on Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by Montrose Toast   » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:11 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
kbus888 wrote:Hi folks (and Mr Weber)

Displacement ?? Total weight while empty ??

Bunkerage ?? Maximum cargo weight ??

Freeboard ?? Ocean level to top deck while full of cargo ??

I am not an expert on nautical terms

?? Can anyone either explain these terms or give me a URL where I can find the definitions myself ??

I need a lot of help here !!!

R


Sorry.

"Displacement" is the amount of seawater (expressed in tons) which a ship's hull displaces at a given loading. It gives a more accurate value for the ship's actual weight than the older "burden" tonnage calculation did. "Burden" tonnage (also sometimes shown as "burthen," especially for ships from earlier centuries) was a calculation of the cargo capacity of a merchant hull of the same dimensions, thus USS Constitution had a tonnage of 1,570 or so during her active career (when it was calculated as "burden") but has a displacement tonnage of around 2,100-2,200 tons.

Even "displacement" values for ships can be slippery when it comes to comparing them, however. When the Washington Disarmament Conference wrote the Naval Treaties which limited the size of battleships, they had to specifically define "standard displacement" in terms of a vessel's displacement as intended for sea duty, with one half designed fuel capacity on board, machinery fully lubricated, steam plant with designed water levels and reserve feedwater, designed ammunition load, etc. Even so, the treaty participants discovered that they could "save" hundreds of tons through purely paper maneuvers. For example, the US Navy reduced its "normal" ammunition allotment from 100 rounds per battleship gun to only 80 . . . but provided sufficient magazine space for an "emergency war load" which actually pushed the ammunition allotment back to slightly above the previous level. Deciding how many boats the ship would carry as part of its "normal" allotment was another way to cheat. Or, then, you could always take the Japanese approach and simply lie, telling the world that your eight-inch only displaced the 10,000 tons the treaties allowed when they actually displaced in excess of 13,000 tons. But I digress.

"Bunkerage" refers to the fuel capacity of the ship. Coal, the initial seagoing fuel, was carried in "bunkers," in essence storage holds with external access from deck level to allow coal to be put into them and doors ("scuttles") to allow the stokers to remove coal from them in or near the fire rooms. When sealed fire rooms were adopted to allow for "forced draft," the coal scuttles had to be outside the fire rooms' airlocks, which were required in order to maintain the overpressure in the fire rooms which in effect "fanned" the fires under the boilers to produce higher temperatures. Today, with liquid fuels, "bunkers" are fuel tanks which are normally located in the bottoms of the ships, which is very useful for stability purposes. Using coal-fired boilers, naval designers used the coal bunkers for what amounted to additional side protection, using the coal itself to stop projectiles and the bunkers as a sort of explosion chamber which was supposed to at least partially contain and channel the explosive force of detonating shells. What was not realized for many years — until World War One's experience with battle damage — was that it was impossible to incorporate watertight bulkheads into coal bunkers, because the shock effect of explosions sprung or warped the scuttles, which left big, water-gushing holes in the bulkheads in the event of a torpedo hit.

Steamships are designed to float at a specific level — "design waterline" — with the loads aboard that the designer expects them to carry. When you see the bunkerage data tabulated for a vessel, it will usually (especially for coal-fired ships) be listed as two values with a "/" between them. Thus the River-class at "480/1,172," which indicates that the ships will float at their "design waterline" with 480 tons of coal on board but that they have sufficient additional space in their bunkers for another 692 tons. That higher total — the 1,172-ton figure — represents the ships' maximum fuel load, and will cause them to float deeper than their design waterline.

A properly designed vessel should still be perfectly safe under normal sea conditions at the maximum load, however the draft will be deeper and what may be safe for "normal sea conditions" may be distinctly unsafe in combat. For example, armored ships normally have "belt armor," which is designed to protect the side of the ship against horizontal shell hits. Its primary function, however, is to protect machinery spaces (normally located below the waterline whenever possible) and the waterline itself against penetrating hits which would flood the ship, so it normally doesn't extend all the way to the top of the hull. That is, there are usually levels within the hull above the belt but below the "weather deck" (the lowest deck exposed to the weather [i.e., not enclosed within the hull]). This means that if a ship is so heavily loaded that all or a significant portion of its armored belt is immersed, rather than extending above the waterline as intended, it loses almost all of its protective value and hits which would not normally have flooded the ship (because they would have been well above the waterline) instead allow flooding.

It was not uncommon during the period of coal-fired boilers, especially when steam pressures were relatively low and hence less efficient, for ships being deployed over great distances to leave port with deck loads of coal, in addition to that which was in their bunkers. In conditions like that, freeboard (see below [G]) could be dangerously reduced, although generally not to a degree which would have threatened the ship's safety under normal sea conditions. When the Russian fleet steamed from the Baltic to the Battle of Tsushima, its ships left port with heavy deck loads, which considerably increased the distance they could steam before being required to refuel ("coal," used as a verb). With the advent of oil-fueling, that became impractical, but the increased caloric efficiency of oil, coupled with the substantially higher steam pressures available, also enormously increased a ship's cruising radius for the same tonnage of fuel. It was . . . unusual in the extreme to see a European coal-fired battleship with a designed endurance of much over 3,000 miles prior to Dreadnought (1905), and even though that had been increased to somewhere between 5,000 and 6,000 miles for the majority of British dreadnoughts between 1905 and 1916 (the Battle of Jutland), it was still substantially less than that for many of their ships (Canada = 4,400 miles; Agincourt = 4,500 miles Revenge [oil-fired] = 4,200 miles, etc.). That relatively short cruising endurance was acceptable for European waters but explains why the Royal Navy required a worldwide system of coaling stations. It also explains why American battleships were designed with stupendous endurances compared to their European counterparts; it's roughly 3,500 miles from New York to the English Channel, and the US didn't have coaling stations. American ships had 5,000-mile radii while European vessels were being designed for 3,000 miles, and by 1910 that had been pushed up to 8,000 for the US, while the standard became 10,000 with the Nevada-class designed in 1911. Many European naval historians have failed to understand the logic behind such long endurances, and even many who have understood that American naval architects had to design ships that could sail all the way to European waters, fight a battle, and then sail home again, have failed to appreciate that one of the reasons "backward" American battleship designers stuck with reciprocating machinery as long as they did, rather than following the more "advanced" Europeans into using turbines, was that reciprocating machinery delivered lower sustained speeds but were far more fuel-efficient at lower cruising speeds than current-generation turbines.

But I digress . . . again. [G]

"Freeboard" is normally defined as the distance between water level and the edge of a vessel's weather deck. That is, the distance (height) between the waterline and the edge of the "top deck" of the hull but not the top of the superstructure.

In this case, however, I'm using the term somewhat differently. These ships are "casemate ironclads," which means that rather than having their guns mounted in rotating turrets, like the Monitor, they carry them on normal gundecks inside armored superstructures ("casemates") with gun ports. The "freeboard" in this case is the armored freeboard — i.e., the distance from the design waterline to the top of the casemate. They have short foredecks and afterdecks, mainly as someplace for the line-handlers to stand, but the freeboard to deck-edge is only about 5 or 4 feet, and the lower sills of the gun ports are only about 6 feet above the design waterline, which is only about half the height required to efficiently work the guns in a normal seaway. That is, the height required to keep waves from washing in through the gun ports in the aforesaid "normal seaway." This is why frigates, with only a single gundeck, normally have between 10 and 14 feet of freeboard to their port sills. Ships-of-the-line, with the tonnage constraints imposed by the great mass of guns crammed into their hulls, seldom had that kind of freeboard to their lowest gundecks. Until after about 1820 or 1830, construction techniques restricted the length of a wooden-hulled ship to a maximum of only about 200 feet, which imposed a hard limit on displacement, which in turn meant that cramming 74-100 and guns aboard a ship automatically meant that it was going to sit a lot deeper in the water. What it also meant, however, was that you were limited to no more than about 30 gun ports per gundeck, because of the restriction on length, so getting those extra guns on board also meant that you needed additional armed decks. That meant the lowest of those decks had to be closer to the water and that you simply had to accept that under adverse sea conditions (i.e., normal conditions outside harbors and similarly sheltered reaches), you weren't going to be able to use the lowest gundeck's guns — which were always the heaviest ones on board.

As long as the gun ports could be properly sealed, however, they didn't normally pose any threat to the ship's survival even under highly adverse conditions, since the water couldn't get in through them, anyway. So while the River-class ironclads couldn't work their guns under typical mid-Atlantic conditions, they have plenty of freeboard for river defense or even for coast defense under normal sea state conditions, and their lack of freeboard in itself doesn't pose any significant threat to their survival under most blue water sailing conditions.

Hope this helps and wasn't too digressive.

Oh, one other thing I should mention while I'm at it, although I've mentioned it several times in the books. The term "knot" is actually very specific — it means "1 nautical mile per hour" (which is why some of us tend to cringe when we hear someone say "the ship was moving at ten knots per hour"). Now, a nautical mile and a statute mile are not the same animal, which means that when someone talks about an Old Earth ship moving at ten knots (ten nautical miles per hour), the speed for landlubbers is 11.5078 (approximately [G]) statute miles per hour (or, for our metric friends, 18.52 km/h). On Safehold, courtesy of Eric Langhorne, there are only statute miles, so when these ships' maximum speed is given, it is approximately 13% lower than the same speed — in knots — from our own maritime experience. In other words, these ships are slower than they would seem from the listed speeds to someone accustomed to thinking in terrestrial maritime terms.


Nit:
1.15165 statue miles = 1 NM.
6,080 feet per NM vice the 5280 in a statue mile.
a KM is 0.577 NM.

A common rounding is to call a NM 2,000 yards but, that is not accurate.
NM is based on 1 minute of Latitude - 60NM to the degree of Latitude.

Since they are not on Earth, I suppose the definition could have changed to fit the new planet...
"Who Dares Wins"
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by Captain Igloo   » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:56 pm

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Well, lets have a look on a real-world canal:

The Erie canal was cut to a uniform depth of four feet with a width at the bottom of twenty-eight feet and at the top of seventy feet. Boats initially hauled a maximum of thirty tons of freight, moved along by draught animals (horses, mules, or oxen) being led by a person walking along the towpath on the bank of the canal.

The huge volume of traffic on the Erie canal resulted in two major enlargement projects. The first occurred between the years 1836 and 1872. This expansion widened the original canal to seventy feet, increased its depth to seven feet, reduced the number of locks to seventy-two, and allowed boats to haul 250 tons of cargo.

The second enlargement took place beginning in 1903 and resulted in a canal of 120 to 200 feet in width, twelve to fourteen feet in depth, and meant that boats hauling 3,000 tons of cargo could pass safely along the canal.

The reduction of transportation costs was immediate. Prior to the Erie Canal, the precarious overland shipment of wheat, corn, and oats from western New York State to New York City cost between three and ten times the value of the crops. In financial terms it had cost between $90 to $125 a ton to ship cargo between Buffalo and New York City. By 1835 the canal alternative had reduced that amount to $4 a ton. As another point of comparison, before 1820 it cost about 20 cents a ton-mile to ship goods from Buffalo to New York. By 1855 the canal had dramatically reduced the cost by more than 90% to just shy of one cent a ton-mile.

(Source: Wyatt, The Industrial Revolution)
PeterZ wrote:SNIPP

The description of the cannals connecting Glacierheart and Siddar, the emerging infodumps regarding the size of mainland cities and the fact that no other mainland super power had developed a navy to protect their cargo ships all suggested that there must be an extensive cannal system on the mainland. RFC mentions it only in passing but the broader logistical capabilities he does mention do depend on those cannals.

My gut tells me that Silkiah's cannal does have enough capacity to manage the length and width of ocean going ships. The key issue will be daft. Think about the volume of trade that was flowing from Siddermark to the Gulf of Dohlar; food from the Siddermark farms, coal from Glacierheart and perhaps even ore from the other mines of Siddermark. If that cannal required locks, those locks may have been large enough to handle a long enough ship if she had a shallow enouugh draft. The bigger the lock the more barges could be sent through at any one time.

SNIPP
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by FriarBob   » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:46 pm

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I'm somewhat surprised nobody else noticed this little tidbit RFC dropped in as an "aside".

runsforcelery wrote:As another aside, the availability/non-availability of canal transportation had a lot to do with who was able to build (and arm) their allotted galleons on schedule, as will become evident when/if you see a map of the actual canal network.


Am I crazy, or does this seem like a HUGE hint to me? We know that Desnair was able to build their ships, but to only put somewhat "average" armament on them (good with the bronze guns but rather craptastic iron guns), though their quantity must obviously have been quite decent since there was at least some tentative plans to put Desnarian guns on the Harchong galleons Harpahr brought with him. We know that the Temple Lands both built and quite adequately armed their ships, even if the gun sizes were craptastic by Charisian standards. And we know that Dohlar not only built and armed their own ships but actually exported excess guns to Harchong, who were able to build their ships just fine but were apparently flat-out putrid at trying to arm them.

Based on this info, it would seem that Desnair, Dohlar, and the Temple Lands must all have extensive canal systems. We don't know the details yet, but it explains a lot about why Charis' huge technological advantage isn't enough to just snow the mainland under (yet, at least). But also remember that building a canal by hand-labor is very expensive, both in time and financial/labor costs. Even with gunpowder it's still not as easy as falling off a log, though no doubt in the last 100 years or so the networks have been significantly improved.

Siddarmark is obviously unmentioned, but we know they were at least a bit of an economic powerhouse, such that they could afford to build canals just to transport a relatively minor export like coal. Not that coal was unimportant, of course. I called it "relatively minor" because all previous textev sounded to me like wheat and cotton were by far Siddarmark's largest exports. That didn't make the coal unimportant, just "second tier" or lower. And that further suggests that they must have a LOT of canals (or rivers, or both) for transporting their grain harvests about. And that further suggests that those steam-powered ironclad riverboats that got this whole thread started might well have been designed expressly for the upcoming land war in Siddarmark. Perhaps this is how RFC plans to keep the Temple forces from overrunning Siddarmark, by using ironclad riverboats to interdict key canals to prevent the church from moving sufficient forces forward fast enough. Or perhaps not.

But look at the huge glaring omission from that earlier list: Harchong. If Harchong's inability to arm their ships comes from the fact that they don't have sufficient canal networks in place, the obvious followup question is "why the hell not?" Because they have a HUGE labor force, even if horribly inefficient and unmotivated by anything but the lash. But even with raw muscle power alone they ought to be able to build at least some canals. Then add in that at least according to OAR they were the source of developing gunpowder as well and you have to ask "OK, maybe you didn't have them before, but why didn't you start building them once you bribed gunpowder's way through the inquisition?"

Weber is hinting at something here. And I don't know what. Or why. But I think it might well be something pretty big.

Or maybe it's just that Harchong is so heavily mountainous that there's no ability to build the canals they need. But even if that's all he's implying, it still answers at least in part why they apparently have such a huge population but such a craptastic economy.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:18 am

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Hello PeterZ,

Thanks for your kind response.

I've always presumed there were many canals on Haven and Howard, just that we've had no detailed map or textev confirmation other than passing references.

However one of my points was that why didn't we hear about the Silkiah canal earlier, such as in OAR?

Such a canal would have dramatically affected trade enough to be at least mentioned, and given how much smaller ships crossed the Atlantic with Columbus, the maximum possible size ships to use the Silkian canal would have been a cap on ship size for decades if not centuries, and probably mentioned in the background, yes?

Especially since I think most if not all of Dohlar's galleys could have fitted through the 20' draft cited for the canal, not to mention its width; and even if they could have done it fully laded as I expect, it would have been very easy for them to unload almost everything onto a barge they or somebody towed behind them through the canal to be sure they could use the canal, then reloaded once they reached the Gulf of Mathyas, then on to Tarot, very quickly etc.

Only there's not a hint of anything close to that even suggested, may I ask why?

Now its quite possible the canal was down for renovation or repair (and everybody in OAR knew it except us the readers); no mention yet of any locks that might need repair, but there could also have been a a landslide or slump that collapsed part of the canal, or an earthquake that ruined some locks etc, or a mud volcano that blocked an entrance, but given its importance, it should have received some mention in passing why they were going around Howard when they might have taken a short cut if the canal had been up.

All this time we've been discussing, sometimes strongly whether there was any isthmian canal; and apparently there always has been, not quite where it seemed most likely, but there nonetheless, so any hint would have been very much appreciated.

I realize RFC needs to keep his creative options open, and I very much sympathize, still some cards may have been held too close.

The Silkiah canal would be at least twice as long as the suggested Jahras canal, and thus be subject to tidal effects, which could effect its utility if all traffic were grounded once or twice a day, which could also affect what kind of ships could use it unless they were put into dry-dock type cradles on a known schedule along the canal.

While Silkiah has some independence despite being a tributary of Desnar, how it has been able to skirt the embargo without a large army of its own is worth some further explanation, hopefully in MTaT.

The proximity of Desnar to the canal might also be a factor of international interest, but given the temple's overriding power, the Silkian's interests have been ignored until now, but that could change dramatically by #7.

Protected and Armored cruisers could very well appear in #7 as the obvious force multipliers you suggest, while the ironclads actually see action; since the first steam engine will finally appear in MTaT, it will be awhile before the production can supply the ironclads, as I strongly doubt they are first in line.

If the ironclads aren't used to take and open the canal to the EoC in #7 etc, I will be surprised.

L


PeterZ wrote:I suspect he will answer most of these questions in the stories, Lyonheart.

The parts of your post that most interest me are in Bold.

Ever since the Gulf of Jahras was mapped in detail, I suspected that some sort of cannal existed. The description of the cannals connecting Glacierheart and Siddar, the emerging infodumps regarding the size of mainland cities and the fact that no other mainland super power had developed a navy to protect their cargo ships all suggested that there must be an extensive cannal system on the mainland. RFC mentions it only in passing but the broader logistical capabilities he does mention do depend on those cannals.

My gut tells me that Silkiah's cannal does have enough capacity to manage the length and width of ocean going ships. The key issue will be daft. Think about the volume of trade that was flowing from Siddermark to the Gulf of Dohlar; food from the Siddermark farms, coal from Glacierheart and perhaps even ore from the other mines of Siddermark. If that cannal required locks, those locks may have been large enough to handle a long enough ship if she had a shallow enouugh draft. The bigger the lock the more barges could be sent through at any one time.

Since the locks are located in Silkiah, and the Silkiahns are a bit sensitive about being referred to as Desnairian, and Silkiah adopted the same subtrifuge as Siddermark regarding Charisian marchantmen suggests to me that Silkiah and Siddermark are more closely alligned than Silkiah is with any other mainland nation. By the time gunpowder was developed Desnair and Siddermark were competing for lebensraum. No way would Desnair facilitiate Siddrmark's access to the west coasts of Howard and Haven. Silkiah would only facilitate that if they had good relations with Siddermark. This is all inferential, but stitches together well.

As for the protected cruisers, I think it is very much a case of concentrating firepower in as few platforms as possible. This will allow the ICN to project power equal to or greater than a squadron of ICN Frigates while using only the manpower of a single ship. The only reason this becomes crucial is that the land war phase is on the horizon. The freed up personnel will be needed in the army or the factories.

So I see the Gwyllym Manthyr and King Haarald being launched by the end of Safehold #7 at the latest. Very likely they will begin construction in MTaT.

EDIT: Spelling


lyonheart wrote:Hi RFC!

From past posts, I've made it clear Canals are very cool and important, so may we have more information concerning them, including maps, pretty please?

We haven't seen any rivers on the main map, which has been surprising given the role rivers have usually played in human history.

I'm very curious for why we haven't heard about the Silkiah canal before, such as in terms of a Silkiah canal limit on ship size among other things, and how it was built instead of the much shorter Gulf of Jahras canal.

Is there an unknown mountain range running north-south through the Northwatch province that made that route too expensive?
I thought it would have been one of the first things Shane-Wei would have built while terraforming, to speed commerce, which would push innovation, which was what she wanted.

Does Emerald have canals connecting its northern lakes with each other and the sea's, besides linking eventually with a southern river network to "stitch the country together"?

Does Chisholm have any continent spanning canals (or something near or close to it), or some combination of canals, rivers and roads etc that permit persons and cargo to cross the continent than poor roads all the way?

Does Zebediah have any canals?

There hasn't been any textev of Corisande having canals, is that the case?

What canals does Charis have?
The bulk of the island continent seem potentially far away from Tellesberg in time and culture.
Are any canals in prospect to link Margaret's land with Charis proper?
Is there a canal linking the Charis west coast to Howell bay or Tellesberg?

Is there a canal connecting Tranjyr in Tarot with its South or eastern coast, to speed commerce from Charis, perhaps by joining a couple of rivers with the lake and an aqueduct topping the connecting canals off?

Most rivers aren't navigable beyond a hundred miles upstream, so the 904 mile steaming radius may be less for going up river than covering a considerable part of the coast; so a relative handful might patrol or control a continent's navigable rivers.

The ironclad's crew may not man all the guns at once unless the hydraulic recoil systems cut the gun crew size more than I've figured, but how many rivers are wide enough for the ironclad to turn and aim its broadsides a hundred miles upstream?

Does Charis need armored or protected cruisers right now when the Go4 is so far behind technologically?

I don't think so, although some experimental types are or will be under construction.

Anyone care to add more questions?

L


Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:06 am

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

lyonheart wrote:Hello PeterZ,

Thanks for your kind response.

I've always presumed there were many canals on Haven and Howard, just that we've had no detailed map or textev confirmation other than passing references.

However one of my points was that why didn't we hear about the Silkiah canal earlier, such as in OAR?

Such a canal would have dramatically affected trade enough to be at least mentioned, and given how much smaller ships crossed the Atlantic with Columbus, the maximum possible size ships to use the Silkian canal would have been a cap on ship size for decades if not centuries, and probably mentioned in the background, yes?

Especially since I think most if not all of Dohlar's galleys could have fitted through the 20' draft cited for the canal, not to mention its width; and even if they could have done it fully laded as I expect, it would have been very easy for them to unload almost everything onto a barge they or somebody towed behind them through the canal to be sure they could use the canal, then reloaded once they reached the Gulf of Mathyas, then on to Tarot, very quickly etc.

Only there's not a hint of anything close to that even suggested, may I ask why?

Now its quite possible the canal was down for renovation or repair (and everybody in OAR knew it except us the readers); no mention yet of any locks that might need repair, but there could also have been a a landslide or slump that collapsed part of the canal, or an earthquake that ruined some locks etc, or a mud volcano that blocked an entrance, but given its importance, it should have received some mention in passing why they were going around Howard when they might have taken a short cut if the canal had been up.

All this time we've been discussing, sometimes strongly whether there was any isthmian canal; and apparently there always has been, not quite where it seemed most likely, but there nonetheless, so any hint would have been very much appreciated.

I realize RFC needs to keep his creative options open, and I very much sympathize, still some cards may have been held too close.

The Silkiah canal would be at least twice as long as the suggested Jahras canal, and thus be subject to tidal effects, which could effect its utility if all traffic were grounded once or twice a day, which could also affect what kind of ships could use it unless they were put into dry-dock type cradles on a known schedule along the canal.

While Silkiah has some independence despite being a tributary of Desnar, how it has been able to skirt the embargo without a large army of its own is worth some further explanation, hopefully in MTaT.

The proximity of Desnar to the canal might also be a factor of international interest, but given the temple's overriding power, the Silkian's interests have been ignored until now, but that could change dramatically by #7.

Protected and Armored cruisers could very well appear in #7 as the obvious force multipliers you suggest, while the ironclads actually see action; since the first steam engine will finally appear in MTaT, it will be awhile before the production can supply the ironclads, as I strongly doubt they are first in line.

If the ironclads aren't used to take and open the canal to the EoC in #7 etc, I will be surprised.

L


PeterZ wrote:I suspect he will answer most of these questions in the stories, Lyonheart.

The parts of your post that most interest me are in Bold.

Ever since the Gulf of Jahras was mapped in detail, I suspected that some sort of cannal existed. The description of the cannals connecting Glacierheart and Siddar, the emerging infodumps regarding the size of mainland cities and the fact that no other mainland super power had developed a navy to protect their cargo ships all suggested that there must be an extensive cannal system on the mainland. RFC mentions it only in passing but the broader logistical capabilities he does mention do depend on those cannals.

My gut tells me that Silkiah's cannal does have enough capacity to manage the length and width of ocean going ships. The key issue will be daft. Think about the volume of trade that was flowing from Siddermark to the Gulf of Dohlar; food from the Siddermark farms, coal from Glacierheart and perhaps even ore from the other mines of Siddermark. If that cannal required locks, those locks may have been large enough to handle a long enough ship if she had a shallow enouugh draft. The bigger the lock the more barges could be sent through at any one time.

Since the locks are located in Silkiah, and the Silkiahns are a bit sensitive about being referred to as Desnairian, and Silkiah adopted the same subtrifuge as Siddermark regarding Charisian marchantmen suggests to me that Silkiah and Siddermark are more closely alligned than Silkiah is with any other mainland nation. By the time gunpowder was developed Desnair and Siddermark were competing for lebensraum. No way would Desnair facilitiate Siddrmark's access to the west coasts of Howard and Haven. Silkiah would only facilitate that if they had good relations with Siddermark. This is all inferential, but stitches together well.

As for the protected cruisers, I think it is very much a case of concentrating firepower in as few platforms as possible. This will allow the ICN to project power equal to or greater than a squadron of ICN Frigates while using only the manpower of a single ship. The only reason this becomes crucial is that the land war phase is on the horizon. The freed up personnel will be needed in the army or the factories.

So I see the Gwyllym Manthyr and King Haarald being launched by the end of Safehold #7 at the latest. Very likely they will begin construction in MTaT.

EDIT: Spelling


lyonheart wrote:Hi RFC!

From past posts, I've made it clear Canals are very cool and important, so may we have more information concerning them, including maps, pretty please?

We haven't seen any rivers on the main map, which has been surprising given the role rivers have usually played in human history.

I'm very curious for why we haven't heard about the Silkiah canal before, such as in terms of a Silkiah canal limit on ship size among other things, and how it was built instead of the much shorter Gulf of Jahras canal.

Is there an unknown mountain range running north-south through the Northwatch province that made that route too expensive?
I thought it would have been one of the first things Shane-Wei would have built while terraforming, to speed commerce, which would push innovation, which was what she wanted.

Does Emerald have canals connecting its northern lakes with each other and the sea's, besides linking eventually with a southern river network to "stitch the country together"?

Does Chisholm have any continent spanning canals (or something near or close to it), or some combination of canals, rivers and roads etc that permit persons and cargo to cross the continent than poor roads all the way?

Does Zebediah have any canals?

There hasn't been any textev of Corisande having canals, is that the case?

What canals does Charis have?
The bulk of the island continent seem potentially far away from Tellesberg in time and culture.
Are any canals in prospect to link Margaret's land with Charis proper?
Is there a canal linking the Charis west coast to Howell bay or Tellesberg?

Is there a canal connecting Tranjyr in Tarot with its South or eastern coast, to speed commerce from Charis, perhaps by joining a couple of rivers with the lake and an aqueduct topping the connecting canals off?

Most rivers aren't navigable beyond a hundred miles upstream, so the 904 mile steaming radius may be less for going up river than covering a considerable part of the coast; so a relative handful might patrol or control a continent's navigable rivers.

The ironclad's crew may not man all the guns at once unless the hydraulic recoil systems cut the gun crew size more than I've figured, but how many rivers are wide enough for the ironclad to turn and aim its broadsides a hundred miles upstream?

Does Charis need armored or protected cruisers right now when the Go4 is so far behind technologically?

I don't think so, although some experimental types are or will be under construction.

Anyone care to add more questions?

L





You know,l I apologize for not doing what you expected.

The Dohlaran galleys could have passed through the canal except for two tiny problems.

(1) The (already existing) canal was specificazlly demilitarized when the Grand Duchy of Silkiah was created. (It was also one of the reasons Silkiah was seen as such a prize by both sides, although it was never intended to pass oceanic traffic.)

(2) The Church could have set aside the demilitarization in Dohlar's case . . . but not without coming out into the open from behind the "Knights of the Temple Lands." Remember them? Besides, all it was going to cost them were maybe a dozen or so Dohlaran galleys (and their crews) lost at sea, so there was certainly never any reason to worry about opening the canal anyway, right?

The Grand Duchy was created by the Church because the Church was afraid of Siddarmark's ability to potentially conquer Desnair, and it was intended that Silkiah would be very much the Church's creature. The Silkiahns almost immediately bean slipping out from under the Church's thumb --- one of the consequences of the Church's seccular involvement was that seccular realms started mnaking seccular calculations where the Church's seccular ambitions were concerned. As a result, the trinity of realms worrying the Church were Siddarmark, Charis, and (to a lesser extent) Silkiah. The whole reason for hiding behind the Knights of the Temple Lands was to prevent anything suggesting a religious component, The notion that the Church felt threatened had to be avoided, and ordering Silkiah to allow a Dohlaran fleet to pass through a canal which had been specifically demilitarized by the Church's own orders would have made the true stakes much more abundantly obvious than they wanted to . . . especially when they obviously weren't going to need the canal in the first place, since they could always send the coastal galleys on a several thousand-mile blue-water voyage, instead. No skin off their ecclesiastic noses if a few of them sank along the way, after all..

I suppose I might have brought the canal front and center in the first book, but I knew it wasn't going to be used --- and why --- and it simply didin't occur to me to tell you about it. Sorry about that. I guess it's just a little more evidence that even authors are fallible.

Obviously, the Church isn't going to worry about demilitarization of canals at this point, but blue-water galleons aren't going to fit through it too well. The older canals have smaller locks than more recent ones, and this is quite an old one . . . which is why I made the point in an earlierpost that they might beable to get small galleys through it.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by kbus888   » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:39 am

kbus888
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1980
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:58 pm
Location: Eastern Canada

Hi runsforcelery

You are a sneaky sneaky man sir !!!

I love it ;)

Your explanation just reeks of duplicity !!!

I LOVE IT !!!

SURE you "just forgot to mention canals in <OAR>" - - SURE you did.

Keep up the excellent work

R
..//* *\\
(/(..^..)\)
.._/'*'\_
.(,,,)^(,,,)

Love is a condition in which
the happiness of another
is essential to your own. - R Heinlein
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Re: MASSIVE SPOILER about next book hardware
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:48 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Sorry Lyonheart, but I think with holding the canal data was more important than simply providing us with more goodies to speculate over. You know those canals will dictate the overall strategy of a land war. Heck, they have been one of the key elements of Dohlar's success in developing a more modern navy.

If we had a map of the canals or even key canals, the startegy against Siddermark will be obvious. Any surprises he has planned for us will may very well appear contrived as a consequence. Heaven forbid such a turn of events!

RFC did post that the Silkiah canal is too small for current ocean going galleons. If only small galleys could fit, a 2,000 ton frigate is out of the question and a 6,000 ton protected cruiser is truly out of the question regardless of draft. Bummer! I thought I was right on this one.

runsforcelery wrote:[Obviously, the Church isn't going to worry about demilitarization of canals at this point, but blue-water galleons aren't going to fit through it too well. The older canals have smaller locks than more recent ones, and this is quite an old one . . . which is why I made the point in an earlierpost that they might beable to get small galleys through it.


All of this does suggest that Charis will have to start developing their network of coaling stations/colonies. The question that comes to mind is who will they use to populate those colonies? The Harchong slave POWs? Siddermarkian refugees? Disaffected Imperial Charisian citizens?

Whoever, the colonies have to get started soon if Gwyllym and King Haarald's name sakes are to be used by Safehold #7. So, where will MTaT show the first colony being started? I have my suspicions but would prefer to hear others first.

Anyone?


lyonheart wrote:Hello PeterZ,

Thanks for your kind response.

I've always presumed there were many canals on Haven and Howard, just that we've had no detailed map or textev confirmation other than passing references.

However one of my points was that why didn't we hear about the Silkiah canal earlier, such as in OAR?

Such a canal would have dramatically affected trade enough to be at least mentioned, and given how much smaller ships crossed the Atlantic with Columbus, the maximum possible size ships to use the Silkian canal would have been a cap on ship size for decades if not centuries, and probably mentioned in the background, yes?

Especially since I think most if not all of Dohlar's galleys could have fitted through the 20' draft cited for the canal, not to mention its width; and even if they could have done it fully laded as I expect, it would have been very easy for them to unload almost everything onto a barge they or somebody towed behind them through the canal to be sure they could use the canal, then reloaded once they reached the Gulf of Mathyas, then on to Tarot, very quickly etc.

Only there's not a hint of anything close to that even suggested, may I ask why?

Now its quite possible the canal was down for renovation or repair (and everybody in OAR knew it except us the readers); no mention yet of any locks that might need repair, but there could also have been a a landslide or slump that collapsed part of the canal, or an earthquake that ruined some locks etc, or a mud volcano that blocked an entrance, but given its importance, it should have received some mention in passing why they were going around Howard when they might have taken a short cut if the canal had been up.

All this time we've been discussing, sometimes strongly whether there was any isthmian canal; and apparently there always has been, not quite where it seemed most likely, but there nonetheless, so any hint would have been very much appreciated.

I realize RFC needs to keep his creative options open, and I very much sympathize, still some cards may have been held too close.

The Silkiah canal would be at least twice as long as the suggested Jahras canal, and thus be subject to tidal effects, which could effect its utility if all traffic were grounded once or twice a day, which could also affect what kind of ships could use it unless they were put into dry-dock type cradles on a known schedule along the canal.

While Silkiah has some independence despite being a tributary of Desnar, how it has been able to skirt the embargo without a large army of its own is worth some further explanation, hopefully in MTaT.

The proximity of Desnar to the canal might also be a factor of international interest, but given the temple's overriding power, the Silkian's interests have been ignored until now, but that could change dramatically by #7.

Protected and Armored cruisers could very well appear in #7 as the obvious force multipliers you suggest, while the ironclads actually see action; since the first steam engine will finally appear in MTaT, it will be awhile before the production can supply the ironclads, as I strongly doubt they are first in line.

If the ironclads aren't used to take and open the canal to the EoC in #7 etc, I will be surprised.

L


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