Steam

Just a thought, but, mechanically, diesel engines are not that much different from steam engines. Reciprocating pistons, compression and rotation. The major difference is combustion outside of the engine in the case of steam, as opposed to internal combustion caused by compression in the case of diesel.

MGP wrote:Just a thought, but, mechanically, diesel engines are not that much different from steam engines. Reciprocating pistons, compression and rotation. The major difference is combustion outside of the engine in the case of steam, as opposed to internal combustion caused by compression in the case of diesel.

I certainly think it might be possible to build a steam driven armoued vechile/tank without violating the prescriptions.

(At least possible with Charis' Intendent!)

I don't see any near term use of a diesel engine from several points of view.

The close machine tolerances necessary to achieve high compression to ignite the fuel and balancing a crankshaft would require advances in metallurgy for both the engine parts themselves and the tools to make them.


While it can be argued that the distillation of alcoholic beverages proves that the idea of fractional distillation exists, the fractional distillation of petroleum is far harder to achieve than alcohol in terms of both required temperature and pressures.

Another difficulty is that there has been no text mention of petroleum- nor even of tar pits or oil seeps. While the presence of coal suggests that petroleum ought to be there, MWW has not stated anywhere IIRC that petroleum does. Lanterns using oil have been present but it is unclear if the oil was derived from a animal source such a fish or whale, or derived from plants such as corn or soybean or palm. Coal has been extensively mentioned in the texts. . . but synthetic liquid fuels squeezed from coal is well beyond Safehold's present level of pragmatic chemistry.

Actually diesel engines will run quite well on almost any kind of oil, including vegetable oil as well as kerosene which can be easily produced from coal or even wood pulp.
And Charisian machining already developed for consistent boring of cannon could readily produce the necessary pistons and cylinders, as well as split piston rings.
While high strength alloys would be nice they would not be essential. Civil War era railroad steam technology would adapt quite well to diesel engine production.Charis is close to that technology level already.

But would that violate the Proscriptions? Steam power is using coal to heat water, ending up with something of an internal windmill, which Wyslynn can easily explain away. Internal combustion is directly using oil to fuel mechanical movement. It would be harder to claim that it fell within the muscle/wind/water trinity.

I suspect one would argue that an internal combustion engine is simply a cannon/musket that catches its own bullet: it fires the piston (bullet/shot/shell) attached to a crankshaft by the connecting rods which catch the piston and repositions it to be fired again.

Its OK to have a cannon where a solid shot does the destructive work fueled by an explosion. It should be OK to have an IC engine doing the work fueled by other, smaller explosions. They follow the same principles. The shot moves things in its way just as the piston moves the crankshaft.

bkwormlisa wrote:But would that violate the Proscriptions? Steam power is using coal to heat water, ending up with something of an internal windmill, which Wyslynn can easily explain away. Internal combustion is directly using oil to fuel mechanical movement. It would be harder to claim that it fell within the muscle/wind/water trinity.

What a NEAT rationalization !!

AND, now that Charis' newly enlightened intendant is part of the inner circle, there should be no problem getting permission for this !!

The advantage I see with diesel engine is that it does not produce any electromagnetic emissions that can be detected by any passing Gbaba.

R
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PeterZ wrote:I suspect one would argue that an internal combustion engine is simply a cannon/musket that catches its own bullet: it fires the piston (bullet/shot/shell) attached to a crankshaft by the connecting rods which catch the piston and repositions it to be fired again.

Its OK to have a cannon where a solid shot does the destructive work fueled by an explosion. It should be OK to have an IC engine doing the work fueled by other, smaller explosions. They follow the same principles. The shot moves things in its way just as the piston moves the crankshaft.

bkwormlisa wrote:But would that violate the Proscriptions? Steam power is using coal to heat water, ending up with something of an internal windmill, which Wyslynn can easily explain away. Internal combustion is directly using oil to fuel mechanical movement. It would be harder to claim that it fell within the muscle/wind/water trinity.

Speaking of permission. David Weber is free to use this idea. I assume that he has already thought of it and make no claim of authorship over it.

Just to clarify things in case a lawyer smells blood in the water. Lousey krakens!

kbus888 wrote:What a NEAT rationalization !!

AND, now that Charis' newly enlightened intendant is part of the inner circle, there should be no problem getting permission for this !!

The advantage I see with diesel engine is that it does not produce any electromagnetic emissions that can be detected by any passing Gbaba.

R
.

PeterZ wrote:I suspect one would argue that an internal combustion engine is simply a cannon/musket that catches its own bullet: it fires the piston (bullet/shot/shell) attached to a crankshaft by the connecting rods which catch the piston and repositions it to be fired again.

Its OK to have a cannon where a solid shot does the destructive work fueled by an explosion. It should be OK to have an IC engine doing the work fueled by other, smaller explosions. They follow the same principles. The shot moves things in its way just as the piston moves the crankshaft.

bkwormlisa wrote:But would that violate the Proscriptions? Steam power is using coal to heat water, ending up with something of an internal windmill, which Wyslynn can easily explain away. Internal combustion is directly using oil to fuel mechanical movement. It would be harder to claim that it fell within the muscle/wind/water trinity.

kbus888 wrote:What a NEAT rationalization !!

AND, now that Charis' newly enlightened intendant is part of the inner circle, there should be no problem getting permission for this !!

The advantage I see with diesel engine is that it does not produce any electromagnetic emissions that can be detected by any passing Gbaba.

R
.

PeterZ wrote:I suspect one would argue that an internal combustion engine is simply a cannon/musket that catches its own bullet: it fires the piston (bullet/shot/shell) attached to a crankshaft by the connecting rods which catch the piston and repositions it to be fired again.

Its OK to have a cannon where a solid shot does the destructive work fueled by an explosion. It should be OK to have an IC engine doing the work fueled by other, smaller explosions. They follow the same principles. The shot moves things in its way just as the piston moves the crankshaft.

bkwormlisa wrote:But would that violate the Proscriptions? Steam power is using coal to heat water, ending up with something of an internal windmill, which Wyslynn can easily explain away. Internal combustion is directly using oil to fuel mechanical movement. It would be harder to claim that it fell within the muscle/wind/water trinity.

Quite right. And the power to weight ratio is much better for a diesel engine than for steam. Although
steam engines do create a more romantic impression.

Ah! David is creating a steampunk society on Safehold. I an outta here!

Before they can use fossil fuels, other than coal, and assuming they even exist, they will have to have better metallurgy. Drilling, with the kind of metals for bits that exist now on Safehold, is nearly impossible, definitely expensive as heck and...where is the oil? The science of geology may reside in owl's files, but we can safely assume that by the time in Earth's history that Safehold was established, fossil fuel use was long past.