The punishment of the group of four

RandomThoughts wrote:.

kbus888 wrote:.
It looks to me (now that we've received some snippets) that Duchairn has enough redeeming qualities that he may survive the eventual demise of the <Go4>.

My question now is ?? What about Trynair ??

?? Comments ??

R

I'm not conviced that Duchairn will survive and wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he was the 'named' character that DW is planning to kill off.

I suspect that Clyntawn has deep suspicions of Rhobair. It is very possible that he may know of the note that Hauwerd passed to Rhobair. Though he, like us, may not know its contents, the mere fact that Duchairn chose not to pass it along to him would make Rhobair treasonous in Clyntawn's mind. The aid to the poor may also be viewed as an attempt to restrict funds available for the holy war. It doesn't matter whether this is or isn't a trivial expenditure. Then there is the issue of the failed Navy of God. Since only the Go4 was supposed to be aware of the route up until the last minute, it may seem suspicious that Charis managed to intercept the fleet - in force. He has to be wondering if one of the four leaked. Finally, Rhobair's new found religious beliefs are a threat to Clyntawn. In a sense, Duchairn has replaced Samyl in that respect.

RT

<IIRC>, Mr Weber "regrets" the demise of the named character.

Bearing this in mind, I think it must be another (more interesting and sympathetic) character.

BUT, only <DW> knows for sure.

R

My own personal opinion is that they all deserve to die. The fact is that they've all agreed to commit the kinds of war crimes that I think even the Nazis would think twice about. That said, they aren't all as equally involved and/or responsible, so they should each receive unique punishments.

===

Duchairn: Behead him and split his body into enough pieces that a piece can be displayed in the capital of every enemy nation.

Maigwair: Death by a thousand cuts, but do so at sea in Kraken-infested waters. Tie buoies to each of his limbs and throw him into said waters.

Trynair: Soak him in Kraken Oil and coil the bottom 3/4 of his bodies in rope (soak in pitch and caked in black powder) after securing him to a post soaked in Oil/Pitch. Leave enough trail at the bottom of the coil that the executioner can light the rope from behind him and wrap razor wire around his neck with enough play that he can struggle without cleanly cutting his own throat. Light the rope.

Clyntahn: Normally I'd a proponent of quick and painless executions, but this guy really pisses me off in a way that none of MWW's villains ever have. So, I've concocted something that matches the horror of his atrocities.

Step 1: Arrange two stable poles high enough so that the condemned may be tied aloft in a spread eagle position. Make sure the poles and rope are thoroughly covered in pitch tar. Further, encircle the gallows with kindling (soaked with pitch and Kraken Oil) and piled in a pyramid fashion so that the top comes to just under his groin.

Step 2: Secure the condemned and pull tight enough on the rigging that it's very painful, but not tight enough to do any premature harm.

Step 3: Soak the condemned in Kraken Oil.

Step 4: Disembowel prison in the following fashion: one horizontal cut starting just under the diaphragm, rotate the blade 90 degrees (edge downward) and make a vertical incision, make another horizontal cut going the opposite direction, another vertical cut, and one last horizontal cut going in the direction of the first.

Step 5: Blood Eagle.

Step 6: Bonfire.

On second thought, I've decided three of the four didn't horribly or creatively enough, so I'm amending their punishments. However, the Grand Vicar, the rest of the Vicarate, and the nobility of every nation that supports the Church (excepting Siddarmark, who I suspect will come over to Charis' side) need to be short-drop hanged.

Fyrwulf wrote:My own personal opinion is that they all deserve to die. The fact is that they've all agreed to commit the kinds of war crimes that I think even the Nazis would think twice about. That said, they aren't all as equally involved and/or responsible, so they should each receive unique punishments.

===

Duchairn: Simple beheading. Quick, painless, and fitting for someone who is in the process of repenting and finding peace with God.

Maigwair: Firing squad. He's a soldier and that's a soldier's death. Now, if he ever personally orders atrocities, I'm thinking more along the lines of an exploding necklace.

Trynair: Strangulation. Think the barbarian king in the HBO series Rome.

Clyntahn: Normally I'd a proponent of quick and painless executions, but this guy really pisses me off in a way that none of MWW's villains ever have. So, I've concocted something that matches the horror of his atrocities.

Step 1: Arrange two stable poles high enough so that the condemned may be tied aloft in a spread eagle position. Make sure the poles and rope are thoroughly covered in pitch tar. Further, encircle the gallows with kindling (soaked with pitch and Kraken Oil) and piled in a pyramid fashion so that the top comes to just under his groin.

Step 2: Secure the condemned and pull tight enough on the rigging that it's very painful, but not tight enough to do any premature harm.

Step 3: Soak the condemned in Kraken Oil.

Step 4: Disembowel prison in the following fashion: one horizontal cut starting just under the diaphragm, rotate the blade 90 degrees (edge downward) and make a vertical incision, make another horizontal cut going the opposite direction, another vertical cut, and one last horizontal cut going in the direction of the first.

Step 5: Blood Eagle.

Step 6: Bonfire.

That might be very satisfying but - - -

The real problem is the fact that the main Church was corrupt enough to actually elect vicars like the Group of Four.

True justice would be the punishment of ALL Church upper clergy that are so corrupted.

But that is neither possible nor productive.

Better, I think, is to depose them all (by publishing the truth about Langhorne and Old Earth etc in such a way as to convince most Safeholdians of that truth), and execute the leaders (just shoot them, never mind the torture) thus cleanly eliminating any future influence they might have had on Safeholdians' thinking.

The main difficulty in this would be convincing Safeholdians of the truth.

This approach however, would

1- avoid accusations of being as vicious as the members of the Group of Four ever were;

2- limit dwelling on the past;

3- allow everyone to concentrate on the more important task of building enough strength to meet and beat the Gbaba.

?? Comments ??

R
.

kbus888 wrote:True justice would be the punishment of ALL Church upper clergy that are so corrupted.

I amended what you quoted with more fitting punishments, IMO. I also replied to my own post with the following:

On second thought, I've decided three of the four didn't horribly or creatively enough, so I'm amending their punishments. However, the Grand Vicar, the rest of the Vicarate, and the nobility of every nation that supports the Church (excepting Siddarmark, who I suspect will come over to Charis' side) need to be short-drop hanged.

I also rather suspect the bureaucracy of Harchong will need to be made several million feet shorter collectively, if only to reform that cesspool. When this war ends, there's not going to be any room for warm and cuddly if Merlin seriously wants to pave the way to space.

kbus888 wrote:

Fyrwulf wrote:<snip>

That might be very satisfying but - - -

The real problem is the fact that the main Church was corrupt enough to actually elect vicars like the Group of Four.

True justice would be the punishment of ALL Church upper clergy that are so corrupted.

But that is neither possible nor productive.

Better, I think, is to depose them all (by publishing the truth about Langhorne and Old Earth etc in such a way as to convince most Safeholdians of that truth), and execute the leaders (just shoot them, never mind the torture) thus cleanly eliminating any future influence they might have had on Safeholdians' thinking.

The main difficulty in this would be convincing Safeholdians of the truth.

This approach however, would

1- avoid accusations of being as vicious as the members of the Group of Four ever were;

2- limit dwelling on the past;

3- allow everyone to concentrate on the more important task of building enough strength to meet and beat the Gbaba.

?? Comments ??

R
.

Cayleb and Sharelyn have both said that they do not want to be seen as cruel and vicious as the Go4. The punishments meted out to the members of the Go4 and the Vicarate in general will, therefore, be harsh, but fair, and not cruel or unusual. Moreover, people who served honorably in the Navy of God or the Knights of the Temple Lands or the Army of God will not be punished if they survive the war. People who are exposed as having ordered, caused, or participated in depradations and atrocities will receive harsh -- but, again, fair and not excessively cruel or unusual -- punishment for their actions.

More than anything, the CoGA cannot survive the Truth and the humiliation that will come from revealing the Truth in a way that most people will believe. Having the lies of the CoGA exposed will humiliate most members of the church, and I would not be surprised if more than a few committed suicide out of embarrassment and/or humiliation.

One thing to think about, this war could end in a victory for Charis but Merlin's victory may take many more years.

Look at it this way, assuming that the Reform movement takes over the main Church and offers peace to Charis, is Charis going to continue the war?

Remember officially Charis isn't against God and "God's Church" but is against the corrupt leadership of the Church.

While it is unlikely that Charis would want to rejoin the Church, they can't afford to be seen as wanting to destroy "God's Church".

If the main Church offers Charis peace, it would have to be a "terrible peace" for Charis to reject it.

As for Harchong, they are a matter for another fight. Harchong may be a matter of Merlin meddling without involving Charis's open involvement.

Fyrwulf wrote:

kbus888 wrote:True justice would be the punishment of ALL Church upper clergy that are so corrupted.

I amended what you quoted with more fitting punishments, IMO. I also replied to my own post with the following:

On second thought, I've decided three of the four didn't horribly or creatively enough, so I'm amending their punishments. However, the Grand Vicar, the rest of the Vicarate, and the nobility of every nation that supports the Church (excepting Siddarmark, who I suspect will come over to Charis' side) need to be short-drop hanged.

I also rather suspect the bureaucracy of Harchong will need to be made several million feet shorter collectively, if only to reform that cesspool. When this war ends, there's not going to be any room for warm and cuddly if Merlin seriously wants to pave the way to space.

You really hate the Go4 do you? Don't get me wrong I don't like them, but when it comes to pure vindictiveness you take the cake.

Fyrwulf wrote:My own personal opinion is that they all deserve to die. The fact is that they've all agreed to commit the kinds of war crimes that I think even the Nazis would think twice about. That said, they aren't all as equally involved and/or responsible, so they should each receive unique punishments.

===

Duchairn: Behead him and split his body into enough pieces that a piece can be displayed in the capital of every enemy nation.

Maigwair: Death by a thousand cuts, but do so at sea in Kraken-infested waters. Tie buoies to each of his limbs and throw him into said waters.

Trynair: Soak him in Kraken Oil and coil the bottom 3/4 of his bodies in rope (soak in pitch and caked in black powder) after securing him to a post soaked in Oil/Pitch. Leave enough trail at the bottom of the coil that the executioner can light the rope from behind him and wrap razor wire around his neck with enough play that he can struggle without cleanly cutting his own throat. Light the rope.

Clyntahn: Normally I'd a proponent of quick and painless executions, but this guy really pisses me off in a way that none of MWW's villains ever have. So, I've concocted something that matches the horror of his atrocities.

Step 1: Arrange two stable poles high enough so that the condemned may be tied aloft in a spread eagle position. Make sure the poles and rope are thoroughly covered in pitch tar. Further, encircle the gallows with kindling (soaked with pitch and Kraken Oil) and piled in a pyramid fashion so that the top comes to just under his groin.

Step 2: Secure the condemned and pull tight enough on the rigging that it's very painful, but not tight enough to do any premature harm.

Step 3: Soak the condemned in Kraken Oil.

Step 4: Disembowel prison in the following fashion: one horizontal cut starting just under the diaphragm, rotate the blade 90 degrees (edge downward) and make a vertical incision, make another horizontal cut going the opposite direction, another vertical cut, and one last horizontal cut going in the direction of the first.

Step 5: Blood Eagle.

Step 6: Bonfire.

PEOPLES: It is time to update this point of conjecture. LAMA has been read by most of you, so any revisions?

There are hints that the group of four is unraveling and we may soon lose some of them, it is even possible that some may be forced to flee and seek asylum.

Poker