Why didn't Merlin kill Zhaspyr Clyntahn?

FriarBob wrote:

keylime314 wrote:

NervousEnergy wrote:Why keep it secret and give it to a family with an entrenched 'liberal' view?

The Wilson's back then could have been very similar to what Clyntahn is now. It's been nearly a thousand years since they got the key, and the type of 'reform' they're dedicated to could have easily changed from 'keep the traditions the angels gave us' to 'get rid of the corruption and sin that the implementation of the traditions has become and get back to what the angels said to do' to 'get rid of corruption and sin'. The theory of Schueler trying to set up a way to undermine the church is plausible, but the views of the current holders of the key shouldn't be taken as evidence for it.

Aside from the "plausible" bit, I agree completely. I think it's ridiculous that Schueler had such a motivation. But your idea of the "change in family focus over time" is exactly what I think happened.

Oh, I don't think Schueler was a good guy either. I can just see a chain of events where he could have been. If he was a covert techie like Admiral Pei was, he would been the only remaining techie after Langhornes death, and greatly outnumbered. If he didn't know about Nimue, he wouldn't have had many options. If I remember right, his book was added after Langhornes death, so he might thought the only way he could attack the Church would be to write the punishments to be so horrible and ensure they were carried out publicly and hope it would be enough to turn future generations against the church out of disgust. I don't think this is what he did though, it's just too many big ifs for me to actually believe without more evidence.

keylime314 wrote:Oh, I don't think Schueler was a good guy either. I can just see a chain of events where he could have been. If he was a covert techie like Admiral Pei was, he would been the only remaining techie after Langhornes death, and greatly outnumbered. If he didn't know about Nimue, he wouldn't have had many options. If I remember right, his book was added after Langhornes death, so he might thought the only way he could attack the Church would be to write the punishments to be so horrible and ensure they were carried out publicly and hope it would be enough to turn future generations against the church out of disgust. I don't think this is what he did though, it's just too many big ifs for me to actually believe without more evidence.

Chihiro's books was after the original Writ.

Is the Writ of Schueler the reason why the CoGA is going full speed into the meat grinder? I say no, not on its own. Clyntahn is the main reason, which is probably why he should stay alive till his friends in the Vicarate decorate his body with breathing holes.

Whether Schueler planned for his book to cause the collapse of CoGA is a moot point. There was plenty from Langhornes book to do that, like the 20% tax on everything.

CJK wrote:Is the Writ of Schueler the reason why the CoGA is going full speed into the meat grinder? I say no, not on its own. Clyntahn is the main reason, which is probably why he should stay alive till his friends in the Vicarate decorate his body with breathing holes.

Whether Schueler planned for his book to cause the collapse of CoGA is a moot point. There was plenty from Langhornes book to do that, like the 20% tax on everything.

No. It's not "just" that book. Not even sure if it really causes it at all.

Actually, I think Grand Vicar' Tomhys' treatise On Obedience and Faith in 407 is the primary cause of the collapse that is coming. Had the CoGA not been so power-hungry as to consolidate all ecclesiastical power in one body of men, the collapse might have been delayed yet for centuries. Or even millennia.

Once they had absolute power, it inevitably corrupted them. Now they think that "power corrupts, and absolute power is actually kinda neat".

FriarBob wrote:

CJK wrote:Is the Writ of Schueler the reason why the CoGA is going full speed into the meat grinder? I say no, not on its own. Clyntahn is the main reason, which is probably why he should stay alive till his friends in the Vicarate decorate his body with breathing holes.

Whether Schueler planned for his book to cause the collapse of CoGA is a moot point. There was plenty from Langhornes book to do that, like the 20% tax on everything.

No. It's not "just" that book. Not even sure if it really causes it at all.

Actually, I think Grand Vicar' Tomhys' treatise On Obedience and Faith in 407 is the primary cause of the collapse that is coming. Had the CoGA not been so power-hungry as to consolidate all ecclesiastical power in one body of men, the collapse might have been delayed yet for centuries. Or even millennia.

Once they had absolute power, it inevitably corrupted them. Now they think that "power corrupts, and absolute power is actually kinda neat".

I agree FB, but CJK has a point as well. Not as a root cause, but as an argument to persuade the CoGA faithfull.

Staynair rejects the Book of Schueler. I thought this odd earlier but it makes sense now. The book was added after the original Writ was published and made available. In other words it came after the divinely inspired words of the Writ. The Book of Schueler and the Book of Chihiro are works sfurther removed from God's inspiration as contained in the original Writ.

Drak mentions that the Order of Jwo-jeng was subsumed by the Order of Schueler. It may be argued to the CoGA faithful that the changes in CoGA doctrinbe was a mistake. God is perfect omniscient. He would have known about Shan-Wei and His Writ would have accounted for that potential/future rebellion. By changing His plan as contained in the Writ, Schueler and Chihiro sowed the seed for the current CoGA corruption.

PeterZ wrote:

FriarBob wrote:

CJK wrote:Is the Writ of Schueler the reason why the CoGA is going full speed into the meat grinder? I say no, not on its own. Clyntahn is the main reason, which is probably why he should stay alive till his friends in the Vicarate decorate his body with breathing holes.

Whether Schueler planned for his book to cause the collapse of CoGA is a moot point. There was plenty from Langhornes book to do that, like the 20% tax on everything.

No. It's not "just" that book. Not even sure if it really causes it at all.

Actually, I think Grand Vicar' Tomhys' treatise On Obedience and Faith in 407 is the primary cause of the collapse that is coming. Had the CoGA not been so power-hungry as to consolidate all ecclesiastical power in one body of men, the collapse might have been delayed yet for centuries. Or even millennia.

Once they had absolute power, it inevitably corrupted them. Now they think that "power corrupts, and absolute power is actually kinda neat".

I agree FB, but CJK has a point as well. Not as a root cause, but as an argument to persuade the CoGA faithful.

Staynair rejects the Book of Schueler. I thought this odd earlier but it makes sense now. The book was added after the original Writ was published and made available. In other words it came after the divinely inspired words of the Writ. The Book of Schueler and the Book of Chihiro are works further removed from God's inspiration as contained in the original Writ.

Drak mentions that the Order of Jwo-jeng was subsumed by the Order of Schueler. It may be argued to the CoGA faithful that the changes in CoGA doctrine was a mistake. God is perfect omniscient. He would have known about Shan-Wei and His Writ would have accounted for that potential/future rebellion. By changing His plan as contained in the Writ, Schueler and Chihiro sowed the seed for the current CoGA corruption.

Hmm OK I guess you have a point here... IF people know that there are two versions of the Writ... AND if most or all people actually really do know that Schueler was added after the "fall".

I'm not, however, entirely sure those are true. I suspect they might be, but I'm unaware of any textev to PROVE that they are.

FriarBob wrote:Hmm OK I guess you have a point here... IF people know that there are two versions of the Writ... AND if most or all people actually really do know that Schueler was added after the "fall".

I'm not, however, entirely sure those are true. I suspect they might be, but I'm unaware of any textev to PROVE that they are.

Shan Wei's rebellion did not take place until decades after creation. There were a bunch of Adams who wrote in the Commentaries. In those millions of entries there would be some early reference to the Writ and some later reference perhaps even an explanation of why he difference.

No, no proof yet that I recall. I will say why DW felt the need to clarify that the Book of Schueler came after the Writ unless the issue is germaine to the plot.

At the beginning of Book 2, Grand Vicar' Tomhys' treatise On Obedience and Faith is mentioned as being considered for all intent as part of the writ. Even by priests who should know better. Major reason why Charis is so dangerous to the Vicarate, the writ trumps every other form of written law. And it looks like Charis can to some extent prove the CoGA failing to uphold the writ in favor of treatises that increase their personal power.

Guess it does not matter WHERE the corruption started, it pretty much is all a snowball effect from Langhorne and Bedard. Charis could never have made such leaps in military power without the Inquisition approving gunpowder. Siddarmark would not act so neutral in favor of Charis if they were not played against every other mainland nation by the CoGA. It is a LONG list :)

Donnachaidh wrote:I was rereading By Schism Rent Asunder and something occurred to me:
Why didn't Merlin kill Zhaspyr Clyntahn when Clyntahn was presiding of the execution of Erayk Dynnys with something that will look like a smaller version of the Rakurai? If he had it would have likely been seen as God disapproving of what Clyntahn had been doing.

Just think of how different the series would have been in development if Clyntahn had been removed from the stories at that juncture. His survival has provided many of the factors that have suported the rest of the series.

When Merlin says he would kill Clyntahn instantly given a clear shot, maybe he's kicking himself for not taking that opportunity.

The Plaza of Martyrs might also be too close to the Temple's defenses for him to have considered it a clear shot.