Concepts: Today's similarities and differences to the HV

Perhaps we do differ. I disagree with Jonathan that there are things that a Ghost can do that a Shark cannot. Sharks can carry platforms. The only thing I personally think that sets a Ghost apart from a Shark is that a Ghost is stealthier simply because it is much smaller. I think the MA intentionally built the smallest possible spider driven ship for maximum stealth. Of course they did.

Here's the thing. For a Shark to have been a test bed and training for an LD, it has to be able to perform as close to an LD as possible. If a Shark cannot provide its own fire control, then as a warship, it is useless. Ditto for the LD.

A Ghost is sent for reconnaissance on the very difficult systems like the MBS where there is always rush hour traffic. So premium stealthiness is required. Every last bit. So a Ghost would be sent. That is only my opinion.
Rush hour traffic in first tier systems compounded by their advanced arrays etc , would be a purely Ghost operation. Or rather, better suited for a Ghost. IOW, a weak enough task for a Shark, but made for a Ghost.

I understand the notion though. I think Jonathan sees Ghosts as very specialized ships with specialized hardware and sensors, etc., much like Harvest Joy which I imagine is chock-full of specialized hardware and sensors as well. But if warships don’t have the same then they are useless.

I also assume Jonathan was pointing out that since Sharks were not meant to be used operationally that the specialized hardware would not be wasted on them. But then, how could they be used as training vessels for LDs?

It seems that the addition of the fire-control platforms used by the Ghosts in the Sharks would bridge the gap.

Although I think the LDs as well as the Sharks would use much smaller, specialized, even slower, spider-driven probes instead of platforms.* But for close in attacks neither are needed. Just my opinion.

*And or a specialized computer like Behemoth.

penny wrote:Perhaps we do differ. I disagree with Jonathan that there are things that a Ghost can do that a Shark cannot. Sharks can carry platforms. The only thing I personally think that sets a Ghost apart from a Shark is that a Ghost is stealthier simply because it is much smaller. I think the MA intentionally built the smallest possible spider driven ship for maximum stealth. Of course they did.

Here's the thing. For a Shark to have been a test bed and training for an LD, it has to be able to perform as close to an LD as possible. If a Shark cannot provide its own fire control, then as a warship, it is useless. Ditto for the LD.

A Ghost is sent for reconnaissance on the very difficult systems like the MBS where there is always rush hour traffic. So premium stealthiness is required. Every last bit. So a Ghost would be sent. That is only my opinion.
Rush hour traffic in first tier systems compounded by their advanced arrays etc , would be a purely Ghost operation. Or rather, better suited for a Ghost. IOW, a weak enough task for a Shark, but made for a Ghost.

I understand the notion though. I think Jonathan sees Ghosts as very specialized ships with specialized hardware and sensors, etc., much like Harvest Joy which I imagine is chock-full of specialized hardware and sensors as well. But if warships don’t have the same then they are useless.

I also assume Jonathan was pointing out that since Sharks were not meant to be used operationally that the specialized hardware would not be wasted on them. But then, how could they be used as training vessels for LDs?

It seems that the addition of the fire-control platforms used by the Ghosts in the Sharks would bridge the gap.

Although I agree on many points with Jonathan_S, I do not agree that the Shark was never intended to be an operational warship. It is possible to be a warship while still helping train crew for the much larger Leonard Detweiler class. The specialized equipment that a survey ship has, is unnecessary and too bulky for a warship; but would be fine in a scout ship without offensive weapons. Both the LD and the Shark are podlayers (with the storage requirements that entails, note that ThinksMarkedly thinks the Shark is inadequate in that respect) and have massive energy weapons. Note that Harvest Joy was specially fitted out with survey gear, meaning that equipment was NOT standard on a warship.

There is a scenario where the Sharks were planned to carry out some version of Oyster Bay: consider the possibility that the 3s-graser was developed after the Sharks were designed. It was then decided that the resulting graser-torpedo was better suited to the attack on orbitals, so the production of Sharks was stopped and the Leonard Detweiler was designed. That reduced the Sharks to a training role while the LD's were built, but events moved too fast for that change.

penny wrote:You could be right, but not necessarily. I got the impression that it was simply a matter of not having enough time. The MAN didn’t just have the same hindrances that the GA has when needing to refit. The MAN also has to do it all clandestinely. It has to maintain secrecy from elements in the GA, SL, and possibly even from elements in its own camp, like Galton, etc.

It also could have been that they could not afford to divert or re-task the brains and skilled workers that would be needed to do so from elsewhere.

And God only knows where that elsewhere is; which cues a thought …

ThinksMarkedly wrote:People, no. See below.

Equipment and availability? Yes, that could be. The Sharks were built in the Darius system, which is the same place where the LDs were being built.

Do we have textev that they were built in the same system and that that system is Darius? Your previous notion that Darius is a beautiful system that is not militarized seems to argue against that being true. Notwithstanding my notion that everything in Darius including Space Stations etc., could be invisible.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:So it's entirely possible that all of the available equipment, resources, and personnel were on the LDs. To modify a Shark, they'd have to close a half-built LD and pull it out of the build slip, then bring the Shark in. They could therefore have made a decision not to do it because it would further delay the LDs' completion. That is even more likely if the refit was a risky one: the risk/reward ratio would be too skewed.

Why wouldn’t they have separate stations? Therefore, build slips? Admittedly, I think I recall text mentioning that there is only one space station? However, there is no transparency in the MAN. Nobody knew about any other project than what he/she worked on. I question whether the same build slips, let alone space station would be used. Hence, my previous suggestion of another, as of yet, unknown system.

penny wrote:The MAN’s insane logistics of possibly having to ferry tools, parts, materials, research (and possibly even skilled workers) all over creation makes me sympathize with the MA's plight. I see MAlign agents attending seminars and classes in League space availing themselves of the many breakthroughs and early research in the SL completely oblivious to the SLN; oblivious to their own breakthroughs AND to what a particular breakthrough might mean for the Navy. At any rate, I sympathize with the possible round trips of some of the MA’s research having to “run the gauntlet” of WHs and governments aboard inconspicuous dispatch boats. Each boat from each system dependent upon the research obtained from another.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:There's no way the MAN wouldn't have sufficient personnel. I could see your point that a few of the top-most scientists were travelling out of Darius (under direct scrutiny from a GAUL-like minder and with suicide nanites, whether they were aware of it or not), but that is irrelevant.

Indeed. Top-most scientists may need to travel outside of Darius. Perhaps to systems supplying materials and parts to ensure that the material and parts meet a certain criteria.

But I was thinking that not many scientists are familiar with the most classified data of how the ships are built. For instance, if you are familiar with the food chain Kentucky Fried Chicken (KFC) with its secret recipe of several herbs and spices, it is s said that no two people are aware of all of the spices that go into the recipe. That keeps the recipe safe from espionage and defection. I’d think a similar security protocol would be implemented in Malign space to keep the secrets safe. It isn’t the number of workers, it’s the need-to-know aspect of it. Isn’t that what happened with Simoes? Which begs the question of what kind of hole did Simoes defection leave in his department?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:One, the number of people who were travelling is inconsequential to the ask. The task requires thousands of people, and there's no way that many people would be allowed to leave the Darius system.

Many people do not need to leave the system for the notion to be valid. Only one person needs to leave the system. And we know that at least members of the Onion are leaving if only to conduct business. Scientists need to be the ones who meet with companies to lay out the criteria needed along with any special caveats. The same goes for the parts. I am not certain that members of the Inner Onion can double as scientists. The MAN wouldn’t want to run the gauntlet of “customs” stops throughout the galaxy and arrive back to Darius and the materials are too low a quality, has other imperfections and that the parts have a problem as well because a proper scientist / engineer did not make the initial meeting.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Two, the people who are travelling aren't the ones who need to work on the refit. No technician is ever going to be allowed out of the Darius system.

Technicians maybe not. They are too low on the totem pole. Scientists and Engineers on the other hand.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Three, the few top designers who might have been allowed to travel aren't the only people who could do it. They might be the best to design the change, but they wouldn't be the only. Their understudy could do the job, and if not at least get it started before the top designer came back to do a final review. There would be others to critique the design too.

I don’t think it is that simple for such a paranoid, compartmentalized society. There are probably teams of workers. Everyone within a team can do the same job. But! Secrecy and security comes into play here like it does nowhere else in the galaxy. You have watchers watching the workers, and watchers watching the watchers, etc. Remember in the lab, Gail I believe, didn’t have the freedom to think out loud because of listening devices. In MAlign space, an entire infrastructure of people several layers deep along with security protocols have to be moved. It is not a simple process.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And four, the timing doesn't make sense for those few who can travel. The paper designs would have been made if they were possible, even if they never were necessary. For this to be the case, you'd have needed to ship all the designers of the Shark class away soon after they were done, while the LDs were in construction, which were likely designed by the same people. That's not likely.

There is too much compartmentalization for people to work on different projects. Simoes only knew about his project. I agree there is no shortage of workers so why spread a few of them thin?

penny wrote:Actually I suspect that Sharks could pull double duty as armed Ghosts.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Yes. But I suspect there will be another ship type in-between that is armed and isn't battleship-sized. Something the size of a CA.

I suspect there are other ships on the drawing board as well. But in the meantime, Sharks can pull double duty.

penny wrote:If a Shark can slither deep inside enemy territory, and if being deep inside enemy territory affords a Shark shark-like opportunities, then the shark will attack.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Side note, sharks are not stealthy. Doesn't every movie show them having a fin above the water line?

True. But the fin disappears when they dive.

penny wrote:I wish we had a couple of g-torps now!”

A Shark is not going to shy away from helpless prey that can’t fight back. THIS Shark will not hesitate to attack if the prize is worth its death. Heck, it was thought that the crew of the Enola Gay would perish after it delivered its payload over Japan. That sure didn’t stop the mission.

penny wrote:However, there could come a situation where the Shark needs to strike immediately because of a closing window of opportunity. It better not let the Inner Onion find out it passed up an incredible opportunity because it was concerned with its own mortality.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But it had also better not let the Inner Onion down because it let the spider drive be captured because it risked too much. Or worse, the navigational database hadn't been completely wiped out.

The chance that it can get such a total victory against an important target is low. I will agree that if the opportunity turns up, it should take it. I'm saying it's a rare unicorn type of opportunity, one that the MAN cannot train for.

I disagree. Sneaking up on juicy targets is probably child’s play. It is Spider Tactics 101. It is so trivial of a tactic that it is found in the glossary in the back of the book. You don’t think the MAN wargames as well? No training missions?

penny wrote:There are no Pavel Youngs in the MAN. Sharks will not be chicken. Again, a Shark is a hungry officer looking for a promotion. LOL

ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, I don't agree. The doctrine will call for cautious officers who complete their mission without risking the advantages the MAN has. Just look at the inner monologues of the COs of the Oyster Bay attack: all of them were Shark COs and flag officers, and none of them appeared to be "hungry officer looking for a promotion."

I agree that doctrine will call for cautious officers. But not docile officers. The importance of eliminating the two juiciest targets who have ever been on the CAASAP list will be imparted unto each CO. In fact, a Shark has been dispatched to do so. There is no ambiguity there. Oyster Bay was a special case. It was the maiden voyage of the spider drives. And the destruction of the targets of Oyster Bay was of paramount importance. Nobody was going to deviate from the plan or get cute. Especially when the performance of the stealth against foreign technology is not known. But! Just like the RMN allows its officers autonomy in the field, I would be hard pressed to believe that a CO in the MAN does not have a bit of autonomy as well.

What? You all believe that an arrogant clique like the MA who feels their Alpha status is superior will turn around and lack the confidence in the performance of those same officers in the field so much that they distrust giving them autonomy to deviate within the parameters of the objectives? I don’t.

penny wrote:You’re too preoccupied with the survival of the ship rather than the completion of a mission. A mission that might have been conceived on the opportunistic spot by an opportunistic predator.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Not the survival of the ship, but the non-capture of the ship. The two are linked.

Agreed. Don’t forget the capture of the officers / crew. But capturing any of the crew just ain’t gonna happen. Not alive anyway. Capturing the ship won’t happen either. Not intact anyway. Onboard a MAN ship… the explosives… are wired with explosives too. L O L

Look at them sitting there all dumb and happy like sitting ducks. I could kill them all if only I had a couple of G-torps. Maybe even just one!

ThinksMarkedly wrote:They'd have a couple. Mounted externally.

Agreed. At least a couple.

penny wrote:That is not even remotely the same tactical situation! Again you are dismissing the projection of force. I assure you that if a destroyer could carry an A-bomb and could get close enough, and if it could deploy it, it would. Are you dismissing the destructive potential of only a single gtorp under the right conditions? Let alone several.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'm not. I am questioning the risk/reward. Again the case of the BC(P): it was designed and built, but the end result was the RMN concluded it was too fragile and carried too few missiles anyway. If the conclusion is that the Shark is too fragile if it has a hollow core to carry a torpedo, then it shouldn't be done.

I was under the impression that the consensus in the forum is that even the LDs are fragile. Everyone except myself that is. They are not eggshells. Even if they employ some measure of the notion that having a strong defense is having a strong offense. I welcome you to a membership of one if you’re interested.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And I'll give your argument back to you: every Shark refit or newly built is time that an LD wasn't being worked on. An LD is far more survivable, carries far more torpedoes per unit of personnel and of time and resources invested. Its disadvantage is that it can only be in one place at a time, whereas the equivalent mass of Sharks could be in two or three.

But what if the development of the Sharks were kept separate from the development of the LDs? Plausible deniability for one.

Worker: I can only build LDs. But I build them well. The workout trials of a MAN ship will expose no flaws due to operator error. Inferiority of materials, maybe.

penny wrote:Do we have textev that they were built in the same system and that that system is Darius? Your previous notion that Darius is a beautiful system that is not militarized seems to argue against that being true. Notwithstanding my notion that everything in Darius including Space Stations etc., could be invisible.

I was under the impression that the consensus in the forum is that even the LDs are fragile. Everyone except myself that is. They are not eggshells. Even if they employ some measure of a strong defense is having a strong offense.

I just had a thought. But what if the development of the Sharks were kept separate from the development of the LDs? Plausible deniability for one.

Where could any spider drive ship be built, except in Darius (or someplace only Darius knew about) and keep the knowledge of that drive solely in Darius? Not even the Malign has the secret of total invisibility; the best stealth system is directional and needs to be aimed at the enemy.

The Leonard Detweiler class (and all spider drive ships) are fragile in comparison, because they lack the invincible shield of a wedge; no matter how strong their active defenses may be.

Again, how would anyone view the development of one spider drive ship as separate from another spider drive ship; when no one else knows how to make ANY spider drive ship? Where is the "Plausible deniability"?

penny wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:People, no. See below.

Equipment and availability? Yes, that could be. The Sharks were built in the Darius system, which is the same place where the LDs were being built.

Do we have textev that they were built in the same system and that that system is Darius? Your previous notion that Darius is a beautiful system that is not militarized seems to argue against that being true. Notwithstanding my notion that everything in Darius including Space Stations etc., could be invisible.

I don't recall specific text-ev about where the Sharks were built. OTOH we have textev that the Lenny Dets are being built in shipyards at Darius. And if the MAlign had 'yet another secret system' with naval shipyards they'd used for the Sharks why wouldn't they also be building the LDs there?
So logically it seems the Sharks would also have been built in the Darius yards.

Mission of Honor wrote:Albrecht Detweiler reflected on exactly what that implied as he stood to one side on what would have been the flag deck aboard an actual warship and watched the enormous space station, gleaming in the reflected light of the F6 star called Darius, growing larger on the visual display as MANS Genesis approached it. The station—known officially as Darius Prime—orbited the planet Gamma, Darius’ only habitable world
[snip]
His eyes moved to the ships taking form in the shipyards Darius Prime supported. Eventually, those ships would become the first units of the Leonard Detweiler class, he knew, although it wouldn’t happen anywhere near as soon as he wished. The much smaller units of the Shark class in parking orbit beyond Darius Prime were visible evidence of why he wished that.

(And then later in the book, when Benjamin and Albrecht were discussing the risk of follow-up post-OB strikes Benjamin argues they need to avoid risking the Sharks' crews as they "are the seed corn for the crews of the ships we’re building here in Darius" -- those being the aforementioned LDs. And so Benjamin successfully argued that it was too risky, and their Sharks provided insufficient force, to try to strike the now alerted RMN fleet which would be constantly looking for such stealthy ships trying to sneak up on it, even while at anchor.)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:People, no. See below.

Equipment and availability? Yes, that could be. The Sharks were built in the Darius system, which is the same place where the LDs were being built.

penny wrote:Do we have textev that they were built in the same system and that that system is Darius? Your previous notion that Darius is a beautiful system that is not militarized seems to argue against that being true. Notwithstanding my notion that everything in Darius including Space Stations etc., could be invisible.

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't recall specific text-ev about where the Sharks were built. OTOH we have textev that the Lenny Dets are being built in shipyards at Darius. And if the MAlign had 'yet another secret system' with naval shipyards they'd used for the Sharks why wouldn't they also be building the LDs there?
So logically it seems the Sharks would also have been built in the Darius yards.

Mission of Honor wrote:Albrecht Detweiler reflected on exactly what that implied as he stood to one side on what would have been the flag deck aboard an actual warship and watched the enormous space station, gleaming in the reflected light of the F6 star called Darius, growing larger on the visual display as MANS Genesis approached it. The station—known officially as Darius Prime—orbited the planet Gamma, Darius’ only habitable world
[snip]
His eyes moved to the ships taking form in the shipyards Darius Prime supported. Eventually, those ships would become the first units of the Leonard Detweiler class, he knew, although it wouldn’t happen anywhere near as soon as he wished. The much smaller units of the Shark class in parking orbit beyond Darius Prime were visible evidence of why he wished that.

(And then later in the book, when Benjamin and Albrecht were discussing the risk of follow-up post-OB strikes Benjamin argues they need to avoid risking the Sharks' crews as they "are the seed corn for the crews of the ships we’re building here in Darius" -- those being the aforementioned LDs. And so Benjamin successfully argued that it was too risky, and their Sharks provided insufficient force, to try to strike the now alerted RMN fleet which would be constantly looking for such stealthy ships trying to sneak up on it, even while at anchor.)

Thanks again for the textev.

Ok. Here’s the thing. Some of you have argued that Darius is a beautiful system and a beautiful planet that is not mired by military installations and stations. I had one poster long ago who argued with me vehemently about whether the MA even had a navy.

Compound that with the fact that there is no transparency between the MA and their citizens. There isn’t even transparency inside the Onion. The MA has lied to its population. The population was told that they are only building ships for defense. Not for aggression. And certainly not for global domination.

Now, consider that there is a planned allotment of 100 LDs. How in the bejeebus are they going to hide the completion or the building of 100 LDs, and how are they going to make it look like they are only built for defense? Then there are the Sharks, the Ghosts and God only knows what other ships will be built.

Could it be that the first few will be built in Darius and the rest in some other classified location? They train in Darius space so they need some to train with.

Anyway, if all ships are built at the same station, then wouldn’t Simoes have been able to give a lot more data about the Streak Drive? Maybe not, since it is simply an oversized compensator, but loose lips in close quartered slips sink ships.

I forgot an important detail. There not only needed to be enough time to refit the Sharks. But it had to be done quickly enough to still allow the Sharks to insert themselves into the target systems without incident.

penny wrote:Ok. Here’s the thing. Some of you have argued that Darius is a beautiful system and a beautiful planet that is not mired by military installations and stations. I had one poster long ago who argued with me vehemently about whether the MA even had a navy.

Compound that with the fact that there is no transparency between the MA and their citizens. There isn’t even transparency inside the Onion. The MA has lied to its population. The population was told that they are only building ships for defense. Not for aggression. And certainly not for global domination.

Now, consider that there is a planned allotment of 100 LDs. How in the bejeebus are they going to hide the completion or the building of 100 LDs, and how are they going to make it look like they are only built for defense? Then there are the Sharks, the Ghosts and God only knows what other ships will be built.

Could it be that the first few will be built in Darius and the rest in some other classified location? They train in Darius space so they need some to train with.

Anyway, if all ships are built at the same station, then wouldn’t Simoes have been able to give a lot more data about the Streak Drive? Maybe not, since it is simply an oversized compensator, but loose lips in close quartered slips sink ships.

I forgot an important detail. There not only needed to be enough time to refit the Sharks. But it had to be done quickly enough to still allow the Sharks to insert themselves into the target system without incident.

Herlander Simões gave as much technical knowledge of the streak drive as he could, because he was a lead scientist on the project to improve that drive. What he only knew a little bit about was the spider drive, which I assume is what you meant. The streak drive is an oversize hyper-generator and not a compensator at all. Why are you bringing this up?

Darius is described as a beautiful place and the presence of military factories building unprecedented weapons will be hard to justify when they claim they are benign and it was Galton that was vicious military powerhouse. We do not know how the author will explain the contradiction. The part of the population that was lied to is the part outside of the Onion.

The Sharks did not need to be refit (for Oyster Bay?), they only needed the ad hoc structures to externally support the graser torpedoes. They never inserted themselves into the target systems, but dropped all the weapons while still outside the hyper-limit.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Ok. Here’s the thing. Some of you have argued that Darius is a beautiful system and a beautiful planet that is not mired by military installations and stations. I had one poster long ago who argued with me vehemently about whether the MA even had a navy.

Compound that with the fact that there is no transparency between the MA and their citizens. There isn’t even transparency inside the Onion. The MA has lied to its population. The population was told that they are only building ships for defense. Not for aggression. And certainly not for global domination.

Now, consider that there is a planned allotment of 100 LDs. How in the bejeebus are they going to hide the completion or the building of 100 LDs, and how are they going to make it look like they are only built for defense? Then there are the Sharks, the Ghosts and God only knows what other ships will be built.

Could it be that the first few will be built in Darius and the rest in some other classified location? They train in Darius space so they need some to train with.

Anyway, if all ships are built at the same station, then wouldn’t Simoes have been able to give a lot more data about the Streak Drive? Maybe not, since it is simply an oversized compensator, but loose lips in close quartered slips sink ships.

I forgot an important detail. There not only needed to be enough time to refit the Sharks. But it had to be done quickly enough to still allow the Sharks to insert themselves into the target system without incident.

Herlander Simões gave as much technical knowledge of the streak drive as he could, because he was a lead scientist on the project to improve that drive. What he only knew a little bit about was the spider drive, which I assume is what you meant. The streak drive is an oversize hyper-generator and not a compensator at all. Why are you bringing this up?

Darius is described as a beautiful place and the presence of military factories building unprecedented weapons will be hard to justify when they claim they are benign and it was Galton that was vicious military powerhouse. We do not know how the author will explain the contradiction. The part of the population that was lied to is the part outside of the Onion.

The Sharks did not need to be refit (for Ouster Bay?), they only needed the ad hoc structures to externally support the graser torpedoes. They never inserted themselves into the target systems, but dropped all the weapons while still outside the hyper-limit.

Goodness grief! How did I cross those wires!

Continuing the thought, how was Simoes not able to give more detail on the spider ships if they were all built at the one station? Especially when that station is said to be much smaller than Hephaestus? It isn't like the ship looks like a conventional ship. And I don't recall him having any knowledge of a spider ship's appearance.

I also don't recall him giving enough knowledge about the streak drive as someone who would have worked on it from its inception. Which goes to support my notion of compartmentalization and need to know. I think he might have given enough detail that the demonic duo can figure it out, eventually. But, being that he was the lead scientist on improving it, he should have been able to give enough detail that the rest should be a cinch to figure out. Especially since textev gave testimony that the galaxy and the RMN had labored a long time trying to figure it out eons ago and had given up. The dummies.

I know all of you think it is a matter of time that the GA will have the Streak Drive, but I didn't get the same memo that they definitely would. In fact, I got the impression that Simoes knowledge was more theoretically than technical.

We were discussing why the Sharks had not been refitted to carry the g-torp internally instead of that jury-rigged system.


. Oops, got caught with my hand in the ink jar.

.

penny wrote:Why wouldn’t they have separate stations? Therefore, build slips? Admittedly, I think I recall text mentioning that there is only one space station? However, there is no transparency in the MAN. Nobody knew about any other project than what he/she worked on. I question whether the same build slips, let alone space station would be used. Hence, my previous suggestion of another, as of yet, unknown system.

They could, but I suspect they simply expanded the slips that were used to build (some of) the Sharks into the size necessary to accommodate the Leonard Detweiler class. It would be cheaper. And this is especially if there were no further call to build more Sharks.

Even if, as I suspect, there are more classes and types of spider-drive ships, the build slips used for the Sharks may have been unavailable too, either being retooled for the next class/type, or already in use for those. Either way, the issue would be that the Sharks were only a prototype design and there would be no need to keep their build slips operational.

Indeed. Top-most scientists may need to travel outside of Darius. Perhaps to systems supplying materials and parts to ensure that the material and parts meet a certain criteria.

That's not a scientist's job. Not even a lead engineer's. If anyone had to be sent for that, it would be a Supply QA engineer, of which there would be plenty left in Darius to continue operations.

But I don't think there's any need to send any such because Darius should be self-sufficient. There are no freighters going to and from Darius, because that would be an OpSec nightmare. I don't think they're mining even nearby systems - we haven't heard of that in any system in the HV. The closest is actually the MBS, where the Unicorn belt in the B component was being mined as early as Travis' time.

But I was thinking that not many scientists are familiar with the most classified data of how the ships are built. For instance, if you are familiar with the food chain Kentucky Fried Chicken (KFC) with its secret recipe of several herbs and spices, it is s said that no two people are aware of all of the spices that go into the recipe. That keeps the recipe safe from espionage and defection. I’d think a similar security protocol would be implemented in Malign space to keep the secrets safe. It isn’t the number of workers, it’s the need-to-know aspect of it. Isn’t that what happened with Simoes? Which begs the question of what kind of hole did Simoes defection leave in his department?

I agree: those scientists could be sent to some symposium or conference, either to learn more or to subtly derail any research into topics too inconvenient for the MAlign. They'd travel with a Secret Police escort - probably posing as the beautiful research assistant. Likewise for top ship designers.

Many people do not need to leave the system for the notion to be valid. Only one person needs to leave the system. And we know that at least members of the Onion are leaving if only to conduct business. Scientists need to be the ones who meet with companies to lay out the criteria needed along with any special caveats. The same goes for the parts. I am not certain that members of the Inner Onion can double as scientists. The MAN wouldn’t want to run the gauntlet of “customs” stops throughout the galaxy and arrive back to Darius and the materials are too low a quality, has other imperfections and that the parts have a problem as well because a proper scientist / engineer did not make the initial meeting.
[snip]
I don’t think it is that simple for such a paranoid, compartmentalized society. There are probably teams of workers. Everyone within a team can do the same job. But! Secrecy and security comes into play here like it does nowhere else in the galaxy. You have watchers watching the workers, and watchers watching the watchers, etc. Remember in the lab, Gail I believe, didn’t have the freedom to think out loud because of listening devices. In MAlign space, an entire infrastructure of people several layers deep along with security protocols have to be moved. It is not a simple process.

I disagree. That would also be a single-point of failure, something we know the MAlign has gone through great pains to avoid. Gail Weiss was reasonably sure she was not the only one conducting simulations on the defence of "System Alpha," even if she did not know the other teams that were.

Heck, the existence of two different hideout systems is the most compelling proof of that.

The expedited Houdini and the loss of Galton may have caused some critical redundancy to be lost, but that's now. That was not the case during the lead up to the launch of Oyster Bay, when everything was still running smoothly.

There is too much compartmentalization for people to work on different projects. Simoes only knew about his project. I agree there is no shortage of workers so why spread a few of them thin?

Simões only knew about his project, but he was not the only one to know about it.

I am claiming the designers of the Sharks and the LDs were the same teams (plural). The MAN would not retire (or "retire") the designers of the Sharks once those were completed, then spin up a whole new (set of) design team for the LDs. In fact, it was probably done the other way around: the LDs were designed first, and upon concluding they were too big, they designed a smaller ship that could be used as prototype, testbed, and training vessel.

I disagree. Sneaking up on juicy targets is probably child’s play. It is Spider Tactics 101. It is so trivial of a tactic that it is found in the glossary in the back of the book. You don’t think the MAN wargames as well? No training missions?

I should note again that spiders don't sneak up on targets. They make a web that ensnares and captures the target, then they come in for the kill. Don't get too enamoured with the name given to the technology or the class of the ship; that's why I asked if the destroyers named after blade weapons should be ramming targets.

But! Just like the RMN allows its officers autonomy in the field, I would be hard pressed to believe that a CO in the MAN does not have a bit of autonomy as well.

A bit, yes. And I have no doubt of that. The MAN is no fool and they know that a dumb adherence was one of the PN and SLN's downfall - one they instigated themselves.

But not so much autonomy as to make them rethink their allegiance and pull a Red October defection.

What? You all believe that an arrogant clique like the MA who feels their Alpha status is superior will turn around and lack the confidence in the performance of those same officers in the field so much that they distrust giving them autonomy to deviate within the parameters of the objectives? I don’t.

Yes. Ever heard of suicide nanites? That's something a bunch of arrogant and insecure megalomaniacs came up with.

They can't implant nanites in the MAN due to the nature of the work. So they probably have "political officers" embedded in the crews. Hopefully those avoid the mistake that the Pierre regime did, placing the untrained political officers above the naval commanders, and having to verify their orders. But I'm sure there's some "insurance policy" aboard.

Agreed. Don’t forget the capture of the officers / crew. But capturing any of the crew just ain’t gonna happen. Not alive anyway. Capturing the ship won’t happen either. Not intact anyway. Onboard a MAN ship… the explosives… are wired with explosives too. L O L

Very possible, as part of the insurance policy I've just mentioned. But as any insurance goes, it's something you really don't want to use.

But some debris always remains, especially if damage occurs before the ship self-destructs. Recovering a part of the hull with smart paint would be incredibly valuable. Recovering a part of the hull with a damaged spider tractor even more so.

I was under the impression that the consensus in the forum is that even the LDs are fragile. Everyone except myself that is. They are not eggshells. Even if they employ some measure of the notion that having a strong defense is having a strong offense. I welcome you to a membership of one if you’re interested.

They are, and making the Sharks even more susceptible to hull fracture would make things worse.

But what if the development of the Sharks were kept separate from the development of the LDs? Plausible deniability for one.

We know they weren't, because the Sharks were intended as testbeds of the LDs. See above for more.