pd 1924 - Shape of Beowulf's fleet

tlb wrote:Thank you for the extract. I only have digital copies through Mission of Honor, so it is harder to verify if I remembered correctly in the later books. I appreciate people who quote supporting text when making broad statements.

You're quite welcome

Apparently my memory has gone Kaput
Sorry

Still leaves my points #1-#7

Forts and cruisers. SD'P disappear

Relax wrote:Still leaves my points #1-#7

Forts and cruisers. SD'P disappear

Relax wrote:#4 Rennaisance Factor is rising with hundreds of SDP's and taking territory.

#5 GA while currently allied may not be in the future with hundreds of SDP's of their own.

As I understood the Detweiler Plan, the Renaissance Factor was to be a haven for systems fleeing the chaos due to the breakup of the Solarian League. They were not intended to forcibly annex anyone initially and the actual chaos is much less than what the Malign hoped. While they may have some SD's (not hundreds, so far as I know), they are still inferior in strength to the new Solarian League and the GA. So I consider your fourth point questionable.

I also question the fifth point, since Beowulf's shipyards are a necessary part of the new ships being created for the GA. They will remain so until Manticore's infrastructure is rebuilt (with Beowulf's help). Considering the multi-century ties between Manticore and Beowulf, I see no reason why that relationship should end. In fact with Beowulf out of the League, I expect the Grand Alliance will continue to include Beowulf.

PS: Isn't the main reason that you thought Beowulf would have to build forts, instead of SD's, when you state so many groups around them have hundreds, is that you believed that Beowulf's heavy industry had been destroyed? So you felt that the capacity to build forts would be easier to create?

SD as a unit with its ~8M ton limit in the era of FTL controlled missiles is dead. Acceleration requirements are dead. New Grav plates allow 150G, so why bother with the 8Mton limit constraint. Now maybe we just call the "forts" the new SD class. 1 unit does both jobs saving $$$ and logistics.

SDP in current configuration is REALLY dead as soon as the GA nations figure out the MALIGN hyper generator as this is FAR more important than acceleration.

Current tech state of affairs reminds me more along the lines of early Cold War. Lots of surplus ships from previous war and new tech effectively already makes them obsolete.

By its nature the RF will grow just as the GA will grow if they stick together. Not as quickly as proposed with a dissolved SL, but all the protectorates, shell etc who want out and now have the impetus to get out? They will try the independent route for a bit and then start looking around for "friends". Not all smiles are actually a welcome...

I Don't buy the 150g Forts vs SD argument - The ability for the SD's to change vectors and locations can help tacticly against things like Hasta's and Graser Torps.

SD's can retreat to Hyper as long as they are outside the Hyper Limit so a SD(P) Fleet can hop in and out round a system taking the forts out 1 by 1 since the forts can't move fast enough to relocate round the system to defeat them.

That said I suspect that the existing Bolthole pipeline will be delivering enough SD(P)'s for Beowolf's visble needs just now.

The SLN is not going to go after any of Beowolf's daughter colonies in the short term but yes I can see them trying to re-arm and up tech in the longer term. The defeat in Sol has made sure of that so it's now down to the inteligence war and we know that Beowolf is good at that one.

Now below the wall I suspect there is a lot of needs - there will be opportunists everywhere, some funded and secretly supported by Malign and the RF, other just corrupt mega corps doing what they are used to in the fringe.

SO Yes I expect that the BSDF will be looking for CA and BC designs that may well be different from the current GA ones but using those techs.

My next wish vessel ? A Mk2 Roland, Stretched a bit to support a marine platoon + a few more crew and with an external Pod Rack to carry up to a dozen Pods (6-8 top and bottom?) - more than enough to compensate for the internal magazine limit. With the next generation of Hypervisor even if not all the way up to streak drive giving great mobility.
Give it the capacity to fire Viper's in an anti-shipping role for Pirate plinking from some of it's CM tubes with perhaps another 25% CM storage. At that point you could call it the next CL(L). Work around a 2-4 pod + internal tubes salvo. Sure pod maintenance needs to be done EVA but the racks can provide suitable umbilicals to sustain things for a couple of months before being rotated back at base or with a FSV.
Perfect for commerce protection against SLN tech pirates and a decent war fighting capability.

Also what price a Ghostrider based Forward Fire Control Drone ? Able to update Mk16's or Mk23's fired from Pods from the ships FC via FTL comms. The existing Ghostriders are able to provide "real time" intel. Sure it would not be as good as the Keyhole solution because of the lack of bandwidth but being able to change targeting or selected ECCM modes quickly (Rather than total reprogramming) would be an advantage.

Relax wrote:By its nature the RF will grow just as the GA will grow if they stick together. Not as quickly as proposed with a dissolved SL, but all the protectorates, shell etc who want out and now have the impetus to get out? They will try the independent route for a bit and then start looking around for "friends". Not all smiles are actually a welcome...

Yes, it will grow some; but it is off in a corner away from the GA, so there can be a few Verge systems that are their nearest neighbors which will join. But people are going to take notice if it tries to bully anyone to join (which is how I read point #4) and that would not have good results for the RF.

Captain Golding wrote:I Don't buy the 150g Forts vs SD argument - The ability for the SD's to change vectors and locations can help tacticly against things like Hasta's and Graser Torps.

SD's can retreat to Hyper as long as they are outside the Hyper Limit so a SD(P) Fleet can hop in and out round a system taking the forts out 1 by 1 since the forts can't move fast enough to relocate round the system to defeat them.

That said I suspect that the existing Bolthole pipeline will be delivering enough SD(P)'s for Beowolf's visble needs just now.


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I believe Relax is calling for the creation of what Weber has classified as "Monitors" in other settings. Essentially, Hyper enabled craft in the Fort size - not necessarily forts, but mobile assets in the same mass class with some of the "big boy" defensive assets only seen today in Forts, and the facilities required for independent, mobile operations, which are not usually built into forts. (The end result would be a ship which puts more of it's mass towards spares, repair assets, food, and crew comfort/size and system redundancy than usually seen in Forts, with a hull form more optimized towards bubble sidewalls, but incorporating sails.)

And the concept has some valid points; look at the last several battles - cutting edge, competent attackers stay over the hyperlimit or only come a light minute or 2 inside the limit. Missiles and fire control have increased range to the point that the attackers can accurately pummel planetary targets from near the hyperlimit, and cycle back and forth for resupply. Attackers who enter the hyperlimit are mouse trapped between planetary defenses and mobile forces.

In this environment, Fort scale combatants would have the advantage, able to withstand a magnitude more punishment and spend 3-4x more time between replenishments. So a Monitor - a fort designed for mobile use, would make sense. This doesn't mean that SDs woudldn't necessarily have a place - they could be a maneuver force protecting the flanks of the monitors. and as mentioned, a Monitor force would never go deeply into a hyperlimit until the defenses appeared neutralized, but may use their "Fast Wing" SDs to do probing in force.

Relax wrote:SD as a unit with its ~8M ton limit in the era of FTL controlled missiles is dead. Acceleration requirements are dead. New Grav plates allow 150G, so why bother with the 8Mton limit constraint. Now maybe we just call the "forts" the new SD class. 1 unit does both jobs saving $$$ and logistics.

SDP in current configuration is REALLY dead as soon as the GA nations figure out the MALIGN hyper generator as this is FAR more important than acceleration.

Current tech state of affairs reminds me more along the lines of early Cold War. Lots of surplus ships from previous war and new tech effectively already makes them obsolete.

Three issues with just using forts as SD(P)s. (Even after the GA gets their hands on those 150g grav plates)

1) They don't carry hyper generators
2) Their hulls are the wrong shape to carry sails -- optimized for all around spherical fire -- meaning even with a hyper generator they couldn't use wormholes or grav waves
3) In support of that all-around fire optimization they do use up significant internal volume mounting a spherical sidewall generator (something that's not normally tactically useful for an SD)

None of those are to say you couldn't build a monster, say, 16m ton hyper-capable 150g vessel -- but it'd likely be optimized quite differently than your 16m ton forts.

Building a single design to serve both purposes has technical trade-offs and operational issues.
- It's not as good at either role as a purpose built design.
- The new grav plates are bulky and aren't necessarily in a mostly static defensive use like a fort.
- Forts were deliberately built without strategic mobility to preclude temptations to strip those defenses to support operations elsewhere.