Insanity: Screening elements in the HV

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:What is preventing some shadow entity from hugely overpowering a capital missile’s impeller wedge? If possible, shouldn't that place a capital missile’s impeller wedge outside the threshold of a CM wedge’s ability to ensure mutual fratricide? Plus gain some additional acceleration?

It seems that you are contemplating a missile with the nodes and power source of a full-blown ship? Such a thing might be close to frigate size, or at least many times bigger than an RD. It would make the graser torpedo of Oyster Bay look very small.

What ship could carry more than a few? With that increase is mass, I do not know if the acceleration would increase or decrease.

We really do not know the requirements for one wedge to achieve mutual destruction with another of some given strength. We do not even know (I think), whether a CM could damage a modern LAC.

Even if you were able to build a 1000 ton missile with a CM proof wedge, such a missile would still be vulnerable to PDLCs - and if you wanted to build a LAC sized missile, and give it bow and stern bucklers, then it is visible (and vulnerable) to antiship weapons. And due to it's size, it will not have a massive flock of friends to hide in, or to repeat the job if it misses.

penny wrote:This should be an anticipated question.

What is preventing some shadow entity from hugely overpowering a capital missile’s impeller wedge? If possible, shouldn't that place a capital missile’s impeller wedge outside the threshold of a CM wedge’s ability to ensure mutual fratricide? Plus gain some additional acceleration?

Presumably Honorverse physics is preventing it.

They can't do it the same way a CM does, because the tradeoffs to get that overpowered wedge are no ability to throttle down for extra endurance; so you can't get the range of a normal MDM (not without making much bigger missile by adding more drive rings). But maybe they can super-size the missile to get a super-sized wedge that still acts like a normal missile drive.


I guesstimated that you'd need a wedge that's at least 10x as powerful. And going back to the SD vs DD example, using the wedge sizes Maxxq provided once upon a time, an SD's wedge plane has about 14x the area of a DDs - so 10x doesn't seem unreasonable as a threshold.

But how much bigger would you need to make an MDM to get a 10x increase in wedge area? (In ships to go up 10x from an old Noblese-class DD you'd be looking at a midsized DN or CLAC; so 90x the mass/volume of ship!! Though, of course, much of that volume increase isn't driven by the drive. Still that's a sobering size gain to achieve a 10x larger wedge volume!!

This shadow entity might easily need to build a missile that's 20x the volume of an MDM to squeeze in a drive capable of plowing through a CM! And 20x an MDM that's, what, about half the volume of a LAC? Not going to be able to carry and launch many of those. (And that's big enough it might easily become vulnerable to laserheads fired at it)

Also, wedge power does not necessarily translate into additional velocity; certainly nobody should doubt an SDs wedge is more powerful than a DDs -- but the DD can handily out accelerate the bigger ship. So making a missile super-sized enough to carry a such a wedge seems likely to give you lower, not higher, accel.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:This should be an anticipated question.

What is preventing some shadow entity from hugely overpowering a capital missile’s impeller wedge? If possible, shouldn't that place a capital missile’s impeller wedge outside the threshold of a CM wedge’s ability to ensure mutual fratricide? Plus gain some additional acceleration?

Presumably Honorverse physics is preventing it.

They can't do it the same way a CM does, because the tradeoffs to get that overpowered wedge are no ability to throttle down for extra endurance; so you can't get the range of a normal MDM (not without making much bigger missile by adding more drive rings). But maybe they can super-size the missile to get a super-sized wedge that still acts like a normal missile drive.


I guesstimated that you'd need a wedge that's at least 10x as powerful. And going back to the SD vs DD example, using the wedge sizes Maxxq provided once upon a time, an SD's wedge plane has about 14x the area of a DDs - so 10x doesn't seem unreasonable as a threshold.

But how much bigger would you need to make an MDM to get a 10x increase in wedge area? (In ships to go up 10x from an old Noblese-class DD you'd be looking at a midsized DN or CLAC; so 90x the mass/volume of ship!! Though, of course, much of that volume increase isn't driven by the drive. Still that's a sobering size gain to achieve a 10x larger wedge volume!!

This shadow entity might easily need to build a missile that's 20x the volume of an MDM to squeeze in a drive capable of plowing through a CM! And 20x an MDM that's, what, about half the volume of a LAC? Not going to be able to carry and launch many of those. (And that's big enough it might easily become vulnerable to laserheads fired at it)

Also, wedge power does not necessarily translate into additional velocity; certainly nobody should doubt an SDs wedge is more powerful than a DDs -- but the DD can handily out accelerate the bigger ship. So making a missile super-sized enough to carry a such a wedge seems likely to give you lower, not higher, accel.

Why? The CM itself is small in size. Overpowering its wedge does not seem to have added a lot of bulk to its design. And if such a missile has to give up a lot of range, then so be it. Let's call it a specialty missile for close up engagements. Close up engagements that the Galaxy's premier stealthy opponent will surely get lots of opportunities. Strategy and tactics for this enemy is really really different. Can't stress that enough.

At any rate, remember my proposal some time ago of a missile that shoots its wad very quickly achieving enormous accelerations at paltry ranges leaving no time on the drive?

penny wrote:Why? The CM itself is small in size. Overpowering its wedge does not seem to have added a lot of bulk to its design. And if such a missile has to give up a lot of range, then so be it. Let's call it a specialty missile for close up engagements. Close up engagements that the Galaxy's premier stealthy opponent will surely get lots of opportunities. Strategy and tactics for this enemy is really really different. Can't stress that enough.

So you are building a weapon that will immediately signal that a stealthy opponent is in a small volume of space at a range well within that of targeting radar, an enemy that has no defense against graser fire (which can also destroy the weapon itself)? So why isn't this stealthy opponent using maximum graser fire, instead of this one-trick pony?

Anyway the CM and the current capital missile are already at the limits of their energy budgets. To build this weapon you will need much bigger nodes (somewhere in the LAC to frigate range). Those nodes require much more power to move it though the effective range of a CM (note that your stealthy ship is also vulnerable to a hit from a CM). A minimum of twenty times bigger than a regular missile seems like a good estimate, since we do not know the author's formulas.

tlb wrote:So you are building a weapon that will immediately signal that a stealthy opponent is in a small volume of space at a range well within that of targeting radar, an enemy that has no defense against graser fire (which can also destroy the weapon itself)? So why isn't this stealthy opponent using maximum graser fire, instead of this one-trick pony?

Firing a wedge weapon signals exactly where the launch point was. This stealthy ship would need to have dropped off the missile and have skedaddled away, with a significant vector change compared to what it imparted on the missile. Knowing the spider drives are limited to 150 gravities, getting a 5 million km separation requires 43 minutes. What's the likelihood that the target of those missiles is still in range 43 minutes later? The tactical situation could have changed completely.

If you have 43 minutes, why not use your torpedoes? With those, you could get up to 300 gravities of mutual separation because they have their own drive. And an added advantage that they don't signal their position minutes in advance so multiple waves of CM (however ineffectively) can try to intercept.

This would only be useful if the oversized missile is considerably cheaper and/or less voluminous than a spider torpedo. That is, quantity making up for lesser quality.

Anyway the CM and the current capital missile are already at the limits of their energy budgets. To build this weapon you will need much bigger nodes (somewhere in the LAC to frigate range). Those nodes require much more power to move it though the effective range of a CM (note that your stealthy ship is also vulnerable to a hit from a CM). A minimum of twenty times bigger than a regular missile seems like a good estimate, since we do not know the author's formulas.

That just reminds me that Travis said a DDM would be "as big as a destroyer, as expensive as a frigate" and yet we got something that was neither. So technologically this could happen.

However, it doesn't improve the tactical situation if the range is that greatly diminished. Those who aren't stealthy have no use for a shorter range weapon, those who are stealthy probably have a better weapon.

tlb wrote:So you are building a weapon that will immediately signal that a stealthy opponent is in a small volume of space at a range well within that of targeting radar, an enemy that has no defense against graser fire (which can also destroy the weapon itself)? So why isn't this stealthy opponent using maximum graser fire, instead of this one-trick pony?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Firing a wedge weapon signals exactly where the launch point was. This stealthy ship would need to have dropped off the missile and have skedaddled away, with a significant vector change compared to what it imparted on the missile. Knowing the spider drives are limited to 150 gravities, getting a 5 million km separation requires 43 minutes. What's the likelihood that the target of those missiles is still in range 43 minutes later? The tactical situation could have changed completely.

If you have 43 minutes, why not use your torpedoes? With those, you could get up to 300 gravities of mutual separation because they have their own drive. And an added advantage that they don't signal their position minutes in advance so multiple waves of CM (however ineffectively) can try to intercept.

This would only be useful if the oversized missile is considerably cheaper and/or less voluminous than a spider torpedo. That is, quantity making up for lesser quality.

Do you have any reason to believe that this weapon. with a wedge strong enough to be impervious to a CM, is going to be EITHER smaller OR cheaper than a graser torpedo (which is expected to be the main weapon of the LD)? The graser torpedo is a better weapon, no matter what the time interval is.

PS: Do we know what the acceleration of a graser torpedp is? A manned ship is limited by the gravity plates needed to support personnel movement. So what is possible for an unmanned missile? Chapter 28, Mission of Honor:

For all its size, it was also a slow weapon. It was simply impossible to fit a spider drive capable of more than a few hundred gravities' acceleration into something small enough to make a practical weapon.

Graser fire is more limited in range than I suspect this design would be. And graser fire cannot engage nearly as many targets.

Torpedos might be the better weapon, but only if they can get in range of their targets, and only if their targets remain oblivious.

These things would need to get in range as well, but it won’t matter whether the GA knows they are coming. There won’t be anything the GA can do. Especially the first encounter when they are expecting their CMs and layered defense to work.

These weapons are also AT ALL COSTS weapons. They are slated for use on objectives that absolutely must be neutralized. And I suspect their wine won't be spilled until it's time.

The MAN is not going to rely solely on g-torps. Their war will be prosecuted with a range of weapons. These things will absolutely raise hell on ships in orbit.

Also, consider huge system defense missiles faced at Darius. Launched in huge numbers, the GA will be counting on their layered defense. Big mistake. Huge. (I still think the MAN's idea of system defense missiles is going to shock the GA.) And theirs will be fired.

Tlb calls them a one trick pony. I disagree. What can “Johnny on the spot” do? If your CMs don’t work, what can you do but die?

Anyway, an enormous launch after launch from system defense missiles that plow right through CMs will absolutely gut the Grand Fleet. Even if it is a one trick pony – and I don’t see how it would be – then one trick that is a huge trick and wins a war or a few key battles is good enough.

Tugs have pretty big wedges. They should be able to stop them, no?

penny wrote:Graser fire is more limited in range than I suspect this design would be. And graser fire cannot engage nearly as many targets.

Torpedos might be the better weapon, but only if they can get in range of their targets, and only if their targets remain oblivious.

These things would need to get in range as well, but it won’t matter whether the GA knows they are coming. There won’t be anything the GA can do. Especially the first encounter when they are expecting their CMs and layered defense to work.

These weapons are also AT ALL COSTS weapons. They are slated for use on objectives that absolutely must be neutralized. And I suspect their wine won't be spilled until it's time.

The MAN is not going to rely solely on g-torps. Their war will be prosecuted with a range of weapons. These things will absolutely raise hell on ships in orbit.

Also, consider huge system defense missiles faced at Darius. Launched in huge numbers, the GA will be counting on their layered defense. Big mistake. Huge. (I still think the MAN's idea of system defense missiles is going to shock the GA.) And theirs will be fired.

Tlb calls them a one trick pony. I disagree. What can “Johnny on the spot” do? If your CMs don’t work, what can you do but die?

Anyway, an enormous launch after launch from system defense missiles that plow right through CMs will absolutely gut the Grand Fleet. Even if it is a one trick pony – and I don’t see how it would be – then one trick that is a huge trick and wins a war or a few key battles is good enough.

Tugs have pretty big wedges. They should be able to stop them, no?

You should realize that these things CAN be stopped by graser and laser fire, the same as any other missile that gets through the first defense by CM's. In any case the GA has been known to survive attacks by Graser or laser-head missiles.

Perhaps you were thinking that they can just ram the GA ships, provided their wedges were that strong? That would make them particularly susceptible to defensive energy beam weapons, since they would have point their open frontal aspect at the targeted ship.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:<snip>

That just reminds me that Travis said a DDM would be "as big as a destroyer, as expensive as a frigate" and yet we got something that was neither. So technologically this could happen.

However, it doesn't improve the tactical situation if the range is that greatly diminished. Those who aren't stealthy have no use for a shorter range weapon, those who are stealthy probably have a better weapon.

Don't forget, Travis said that in the mid 1600s, ~300 years of technological progress has passed.

To get the 300 Horsepower found in my modern car in 1725 technology would have required several steam engines, each of which is the size of 8 40' shipping containers; where you could easily pack several scores of my modern car engine in a single container.

While your statement is relevant, we can't compare apples to apples - the base tech is just too diffferent.

tlb wrote:Do you have any reason to believe that this weapon. with a wedge strong enough to be impervious to a CM, is going to be EITHER smaller OR cheaper than a graser torpedo (which is expected to be the main weapon of the LD)? The graser torpedo is a better weapon, no matter what the time interval is.

No, but that's mostly because we have no clue what a graser torpedo is going to cost in the first place. How much more than a regular MDM does it cost?

It's not impossible for it to be expensive enough that an oversized missile is cheaper, but I don't think it would be significant enough to be worth the logistics and overcome the tactical limitations.

PS: Do we know what the acceleration of a graser torpedp is? A manned ship is limited by the gravity plates needed to support personnel movement. So what is possible for an unmanned missile? Chapter 28, Mission of Honor:

For all its size, it was also a slow weapon. It was simply impossible to fit a spider drive capable of more than a few hundred gravities' acceleration into something small enough to make a practical weapon.

That's about the only information we have. I assumed 150 just like the ship because we know the other limitation is the number of tractors. A torpedo has to be small enough that several of them can be carried.

"A few hundred" could be anywhere from 150 to 500.