Insanity: Screening elements in the HV

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:Yes, a torpedo is quieter than gunfire, but can make noise that is picked up by hydophones (such as used in sonar). As we both said, the electric torpedo makes much less noise.

For a lot of the battles it was more important that the torpedo didn't have the flash (or smoke) of gunfire. Visual detection was more of a concern because many ships didn't carry hyrophones and even the ones that did might not always have a listening watch on them -- ships relied more on active sonar (or ASDIC as the British called it) than on passive listening -- though the Germans got good use out of their ship mounted hycrophones.

And visual detection was even more likely in the early years of the war before low-flash propellant became a bit more common.

So it was generally good tactics (though often someone jumped the gun) in a night ambush to fire your topedoes first and not fire your guns until the enemy reacted or the torpedoes would have/did hit. Not only did they take longer to travel the distance to the enemy but but there was a good chance the enemy wouldn't detect them in time evade (or possibly at all). But they almost certainly wouldn't miss gunfire and, alerted to enemy presence, would almost certainly maneuver and spoil the torpedo attack.

Common practice with the PT Boats was to approach as slowly and quietly as possible to launch their torpedoes and then just as quietly turn and slowly move away from the targets. Engagements with ships and other floating things were apparently primarily in the dark. The better to hide and survive.

When/if your torpedoes hit the target or if the target suddenly got really excited and started actively looking or shooting (at anything) it was: SLAM all three engines to max and get the hell out of there. At least that was so in the Pacific. You had just used your most powerful and essentially your longest range weapon(s). Now you're a very soft if nimble target with speed & darkness as your salvation.

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:Yes, a torpedo is quieter than gunfire, but can make noise that is picked up by hydophones (such as used in sonar). As we both said, the electric torpedo makes much less noise.

For a lot of the battles it was more important that the torpedo didn't have the flash (or smoke) of gunfire. Visual detection was more of a concern because many ships didn't carry hyrophones and even the ones that did might not always have a listening watch on them -- ships relied more on active sonar (or ASDIC as the British called it) than on passive listening -- though the Germans got good use out of their ship mounted hycrophones.

And visual detection was even more likely in the early years of the war before low-flash propellant became a bit more common.

So it was generally good tactics (though often someone jumped the gun) in a night ambush to fire your topedoes first and not fire your guns until the enemy reacted or the torpedoes would have/did hit. Not only did they take longer to travel the distance to the enemy but but there was a good chance the enemy wouldn't detect them in time evade (or possibly at all). But they almost certainly wouldn't miss gunfire and, alerted to enemy presence, would almost certainly maneuver and spoil the torpedo attack.

Brigade_XO wrote:Common practice with the PT Boats was to approach as slowly and quietly as possible to launch their torpedoes and then just as quietly turn and slowly move away from the targets. Engagements with ships and other floating things were apparently primarily in the dark. The better to hide and survive.

When/if your torpedoes hit the target or if the target suddenly got really excited and started actively looking or shooting (at anything) it was: SLAM all three engines to max and get the hell out of there. At least that was so in the Pacific. You had just used your most powerful and essentially your longest range weapon(s). Now you're a very soft if nimble target with speed & darkness as your salvation.

That tactic reminds me of why I think the LDs are not going to be used tactically, soley as cowards hurling rocks from outside the hyper limit. If the g-torps are localized and destroyed, then the mission is a bust. Not to have other LDs in-system at that point to launch from closer ranges is lunacy. The importance lies with the mission. Not survival.

Alongside the evolution of weapons and tactics


I know what all of you think of Barricade. But will somebody please tell me again, why aren't regular missiles used as CMs in a pinch? Other than the fact that it reeks as much as shooting down a $300 drone with a $3M Patriot missile.

I always thought that option was even more available to the RMN with the advent of the accuracy assured by the development of Apollo. Perhaps it isn't practical, and it definitely isn't economical. But it certainly is feasible. And I don't know about you, but I believed Honor when she says that life is worth more than the tech. Hey, for me anyway. I've never had a problem being the character and putting my ass in his shoes… or aboard his ship. Imagine yourself sitting on the bridge and an alpha launch of thousands of missiles are coming at you. I wouldn't have a problem using MK23’s to kill their alpha launch. Wedge on wedge err missile on missile fratricide. Especially if their alpha launch was dependent upon pods. Now they've shot their wad.

.

penny wrote:That tactic reminds me of why I think the LDs are not going to be used tactically, soley as cowards hurling rocks from outside the hyper limit. If the g-torps are localized and destroyed, then the mission is a bust. Not to have other LDs in-system at that point to launch from closer ranges is lunacy. The importance lies with the mission. Not survival.

I question the use of the word "tactically". Any attack is tactical and the reason for the attack should be strategic. Shooting from outside the hyper-limit is tactical and so is shooting from within the hyper-limit. Shooting from 50 ships is as tactical as shooting from one.

If the secret of the spider drive is not yet known to the Grand Alliance; then survival is also somewhat important, so a spider drive ship does not fall into GA hands. However the Malign could simply have their nanotech force someone to push the big red button and blow up the ship with all hands whenever the ship becomes disabled.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:That tactic reminds me of why I think the LDs are not going to be used tactically, soley as cowards hurling rocks from outside the hyper limit. If the g-torps are localized and destroyed, then the mission is a bust. Not to have other LDs in-system at that point to launch from closer ranges is lunacy. The importance lies with the mission. Not survival.

I question the use of the word "tactically". Any attack is tactical and the reason for the attack should be strategic. Shooting from outside the hyper-limit is tactical and so is shooting from within the hyper-limit. Shooting from 50 ships is as tactical as shooting from one.

If the secret of the spider drive is not yet known to the Grand Alliance; then survival is also somewhat important, so a spider drive ship does not fall into GA hands. However the Malign could simply have their nanotech force someone to push the big red button and blow up the ship with all hands whenever the ship becomes disabled.

tlb wrote:Any attack is tactical -snip-

Ditto.

That was basically an outside inside swipe @ Thinksmarkedly and all who think the LD will not cross the hyper limit.

penny wrote:Alongside the evolution of weapons and tactics


I know what all of you think of Barricade. But will somebody please tell me again, why aren't regular missiles used as CMs in a pinch? Other than the fact that it reeks as much as shooting down a $300 drone with a $3M Patriot missile.

I always thought that option was even more available to the RMN with the advent of the accuracy assured by the development of Apollo. Perhaps it isn't practical, and it definitely isn't economical. But it certainly is feasible. And I don't know about you, but I believed Honor when she says that life is worth more than the tech. Hey, for me anyway. I've never had a problem being the character and putting my ass in his shoes… or aboard his ship. Imagine yourself sitting on the bridge and an alpha launch of thousands of missiles are coming at you. I wouldn't have a problem using MK23’s to kill their alpha launch. Wedge on wedge err missile on missile fratricide. Especially if their alpha launch was dependent upon pods. Now they've shot their wad.

In the final stages of the Havenite war, neither side was limited to the one Alpha launch that exhausted the supply of pods. In that case it was more important to kill ships and leave the incoming attack to the counter missiles.

The main advantage of using a regular missile there, instead of a CM, was the ability to destroy at a range outside the range of a CM; but we understand that the GA will have something to answer that (just as Galton did). Barricade was particularly effective, because to counter Manticore's range advantage the SLN had to add a coasting phase to the attack. So Manticore's active missiles could both kill missiles coming in without a wedge and then continue on to attack the SLN ships.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Alongside the evolution of weapons and tactics


I know what all of you think of Barricade. But will somebody please tell me again, why aren't regular missiles used as CMs in a pinch? Other than the fact that it reeks as much as shooting down a $300 drone with a $3M Patriot missile.

I always thought that option was even more available to the RMN with the advent of the accuracy assured by the development of Apollo. Perhaps it isn't practical, and it definitely isn't economical. But it certainly is feasible. And I don't know about you, but I believed Honor when she says that life is worth more than the tech. Hey, for me anyway. I've never had a problem being the character and putting my ass in his shoes… or aboard his ship. Imagine yourself sitting on the bridge and an alpha launch of thousands of missiles are coming at you. I wouldn't have a problem using MK23’s to kill their alpha launch. Wedge on wedge err missile on missile fratricide. Especially if their alpha launch was dependent upon pods. Now they've shot their wad.

In the final stages of the Havenite war, neither side was limited to the one Alpha launch that exhausted the supply of pods. In that case it was more important to kill ships and leave the incoming attack to the counter missiles.

The main advantage of using a regular missile there, instead of a CM, was the ability to destroy at a range outside the range of a CM; but we understand that the GA will have something to answer that (just as Galton did). Barricade was particularly effective, because to counter Manticore's range advantage the SLN had to add a coasting phase to the attack. So Manticore's active missiles could both kill missiles coming in without a wedge and then continue on to attack the SLN ships.

The same tactic, used against the RMN missile ballistic phases, would not have worked. The RMN would have been able to see the opposition missile flight profiles, and using Apollo, re-engage their missiles early- probably causing those missiles to burn out early, but denying the attack to the OP-for barricade.

tlb wrote:The main advantage of using a regular missile there, instead of a CM, was the ability to destroy at a range outside the range of a CM; but we understand that the GA will have something to answer that (just as Galton did). Barricade was particularly effective, because to counter Manticore's range advantage the SLN had to add a coasting phase to the attack. So Manticore's active missiles could both kill missiles coming in without a wedge and then continue on to attack the SLN ships.

Theemile wrote:The same tactic, used against the RMN missile ballistic phases, would not have worked. The RMN would have been able to see the opposition missile flight profiles, and using Apollo, re-engage their missiles early- probably causing those missiles to burn out early, but denying the attack to the OP-for barricade.

There could still have been the wedge on wedge fratricide that Penny advocates, so lessening the number of missiles that even made it to the target. But the missiles fired by Manticore had three stages, not the two of the Solarian Navy; so the ballistic stage could have been after the first, rather than the middle of the trajectory. That changes the timing such that the missiles to attach the ballistic stage of Manticore's missiles would already need to be in flight before Manticore's launch.

penny wrote:Alongside the evolution of weapons and tactics


I know what all of you think of Barricade. But will somebody please tell me again, why aren't regular missiles used as CMs in a pinch? Other than the fact that it reeks as much as shooting down a $300 drone with a $3M Patriot missile.

I always thought that option was even more available to the RMN with the advent of the accuracy assured by the development of Apollo. Perhaps it isn't practical, and it definitely isn't economical. But it certainly is feasible. And I don't know about you, but I believed Honor when she says that life is worth more than the tech. Hey, for me anyway. I've never had a problem being the character and putting my ass in his shoes… or aboard his ship. Imagine yourself sitting on the bridge and an alpha launch of thousands of missiles are coming at you. I wouldn't have a problem using MK23’s to kill their alpha launch. Wedge on wedge err missile on missile fratricide. Especially if their alpha launch was dependent upon pods. Now they've shot their wad.

.

Manticore has started using Dazzlers against incoming missiles; and the PRN attempted to use the triple-ripple's nukes to blind RMN fire; but those are not quite what you meant.

I suspect the reason they didn't is that beyond CM range the hit percentages against a missile under power are really low (even the Mk31 extended range CM has issues hitting at its full 3.5 million km range). I also suspect that the sensors on anti-ship missiles aren't optimized for anti-missile work so they'd be less effective at locking onto and intercepting incoming enemy missiles than a CM would. (And you need the missile itself to do that because, especially at extended ranges, the control link lag is too large for the ship to hand-hold the missile to intercept)

Barricade was a special case (even if you ignore the geometry problems with it) because it was a chance to hit missiles in their ballistic phase when they couldn't maneuver and after recon drones had nailed down their trajectory. That does allow the launching ship to hand-hold the missiles through intercept because it's merely a matter of ensuring they fly through an easily predictable spot at an easily predictable time -- something that won't work if the incoming missiles are still under power because they make evasive maneuvers specifically to prevent that kind of easy hit.

And ballistic phases in MDM attacks were (pre-Apollo) pretty rare because the ~65 million km range they could reach under continuous power was already further than they were really effective (Often fire wasn't opened until the range was closer to 50 million km). So you usually didn't get such an turkey shoot option. And of course if you're lucky enough to be able to hit them while they're ballistic you can use your missile to kill theirs and still continue on to hit the ship you were targeting, so there's no real downside to trying for the intercept. But under power you are giving up offensive power if you manage an intercept; and if your missiles are more effective than theirs (as often was true for the RMN) that 1-for-1 exchange of anti-ship missiles hurt you more than it helped them.

All that likely discourages anybody from trying to use full up anti-ship missiles against incoming fire. It likely seems better to use those missiles to try to kill the launch platforms than to weather their salvos. Still, there likely should have been a few situations where it was attempted -- say SD(P)s taking massed salvos from system defense pods (where there's not really anything to shoot back at, and there aren't likely to be follow-up salvos so you just need to weather this one alpha strike and then can resume your mission)

I wonder if a two stage CM would be worthwhile, to try and make the longer range missile kill. The wedge makes a missile very myopic, so put better seeker instrumentation in and make use of an intermediate ballistic phase to scan for targets (probably need to net these together to balance the attack plan).