Insanity: Screening elements in the HV

Theemile wrote:Good catch on that. I missed that confirmation.

That just leaves us with the murky question of How it's done... great...

Thanks.

I'd forgotten that confirmation myself until I stumbled across the line again (a day or two ago) while looking to see if RFC had ever posted anything about spider ship defenses.
(He hadn't. At least not that I ever captured in my doc of his posts)

Theemile wrote:

penny wrote:

Is that true? Do you have textev on that? In all of the discussions on the matter, I've never caught wind of that. We have also discussed the mechanics of the propulsion. Are we to believe that the spider drive's tractor beam attaches itself to the hyperwall mere centimeters from the ship?

And, the tractors are described as being oversized and much more powerful than normal tractors. Yet their range is mere centimeters? If true, then so much for the notion of propulsion by "rowing" then.

Looking for the reference - it's not in the pearls.

As for needing to reach out to connect to the hyper wall - where do you think the hyper wall is? It's everywhere. you don't need to reach out 300 miles to grab it - it's right next to you!

The tractors may be strong, it's not for range, but to grab hold of the intangible. Rowing as an analog is still an option, but more a grabbing motion than a scooping motion. One post by David mentioned the motion of a millipedes' legs; a "thousand" individual feet grabbing and releasing in a rippled sequence, pulling the body along.

Yeah, the hyper wall is everywhere, but it is hard to imagine efficient rowing with centimeter-long oars. I'd find it difficult to believe Spiderman can swing from obstacles with centimeter-long web.

At any rate, the statement by the author that they are too short ranged to be used as weapons would be unnecessary if the range is only centimeters; what an understatement, 'eh? Not that we collective masses are correct, but I think we were settling on kilometers of range. And kilometers of range is still plenty enough to destroy an unlucky ship whose wedge might happen to run aground of a highly concentrated area of gravity.

Then again, kilometers of range would be enough to act as a weapon. shrug

Still, something as big as an LD without a powerful energy weapon just doesn't fit. You all know I'm betting on a 3-second firing graser mounted as a poisonous fang.

P.S. I still think it is curious that no ship in any sci-fi story can enter hyper inside the hyper limit. Yet a spider ship can open a hole from n-space and grab onto the hyperwall. Ok ok, it's just me. But it rubs my spider senses the wrong way ok.

penny wrote:At any rate, the statement by the author that they are too short ranged to be used as weapons would be unnecessary if the range is only centimeters; what an understatement, 'eh? Not that we collective masses are correct, but I think we were settling on kilometers of range. And kilometers of range is still plenty enough to destroy an unlucky ship whose wedge might happen to run aground of a highly concentrated area of gravity.

Then again, kilometers of range would be enough to act as a weapon. shrug

Note that if it has only kilometers of range (say a few dozen) the spider ship would need to be inside the wedge of the target before the spider emitter was within range
(Heck the ship's sidewalls, which are tucked well back inside the wedge, are themselves 10 km away from the hull)

Kilometers is definitely not enough to be an effective weapon; not against ships. And why bother using something so insanely short ranged when SD weigh grasers can shred a ship from nearly 500,000 km away?



Even a destroyer has a wedge that's about 100 km on a side; so something like a Wolfhound would sit about 50 km back from the edge of it's wedge. (Slightly closer to the front and back both because of ship's length but also because of wedge angle foreshortening it somewhat)

And with an SD(P) you're looking at a wedge that's 330 or 340 km on a side!

Don't forget that even a grav-lance, with it's IIRC 250,000 km range, is considered too short range to be an effective weapon!



And if by some miracle a spider ship could sneak to within 50km of an enemy warship without being seen it'd be placing itself at extreme risk to do so. Even a fairly small shift to the target's heading could accidently slap its wedge right into the spider ship; with fatal consequences to the spider. That's like trying to attack a tank by sneaking under it as it's driving cross country -- any steering input and you're going to end up squashed whether they see you or not.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:At any rate, the statement by the author that they are too short ranged to be used as weapons would be unnecessary if the range is only centimeters; what an understatement, 'eh? Not that we collective masses are correct, but I think we were settling on kilometers of range. And kilometers of range is still plenty enough to destroy an unlucky ship whose wedge might happen to run aground of a highly concentrated area of gravity.

Then again, kilometers of range would be enough to act as a weapon. shrug

Note that if it has only kilometers of range (say a few dozen) the spider ship would need to be inside the wedge of the target before the spider emitter was within range
(Heck the ship's sidewalls, which are tucked well back inside the wedge, are themselves 10 km away from the hull)

Kilometers is definitely not enough to be an effective weapon; not against ships. And why bother using something so insanely short ranged when SD weigh grasers can shred a ship from nearly 500,000 km away?



Even a destroyer has a wedge that's about 100 km on a side; so something like a Wolfhound would sit about 50 km back from the edge of it's wedge. (Slightly closer to the front and back both because of ship's length but also because of wedge angle foreshortening it somewhat)

And with an SD(P) you're looking at a wedge that's 330 or 340 km on a side!

Don't forget that even a grav-lance, with it's IIRC 250,000 km range, is considered too short range to be an effective weapon!



And if by some miracle a spider ship could sneak to within 50km of an enemy warship without being seen it'd be placing itself at extreme risk to do so. Even a fairly small shift to the target's heading could accidently slap its wedge right into the spider ship; with fatal consequences to the spider. That's like trying to attack a tank by sneaking under it as it's driving cross country -- any steering input and you're going to end up squashed whether they see you or not.

I'm talking about wedge on wedge err wedge on wedge-like intense gravity field fratricide.

penny wrote:I'm talking about wedge on wedge err wedge on wedge-like intense gravity field fratricide.

That may be possible, but fratricide involves both being damaged, if not destroyed. The spider drive ship will not emerge unscathed and might even be immobilized. Not a happy result for the spider.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I'm talking about wedge on wedge err wedge on wedge-like intense gravity field fratricide.

That may be possible, but fratricide involves both being damaged, if not destroyed. The spider drive ship will not emerge unscathed and might even be immobilized. Not a happy result for the spider.

Remember that wedge on wedge fratricide depends on the sizes of the opposing wedges. I'm considering more of a limited use utility like the destruction of smaller wedges like RD drones.

At any rate I agree that wedge on tractor beam field might or might not result in damage to the LD or its tractors. Some sort of feedback?

penny wrote:Remember that wedge on wedge fratricide depends on the sizes of the opposing wedges. I'm considering more of a limited use utility like the destruction of smaller wedges like RD drones.

That's still way too late. If the GR has got to within 50,000 km so the LD could see it, then it's already toast. So maybe the LD can survive a small-wedge ram. Let's even grant it survives unscathed. The destruction of the RD will be blindingly obvious, just to add more data to the fact that the RD had been transmitting its position and sensor readings up until one nanosecond ago.

But it's only a matter of time until it can't survive. The other side has a good grasp of where this ship is and will send a missile, CM, or like someone remembered above, a Mistletoe.

That's why I said the only tactic I can see of such a ship (as we currently understand them) is to be nowhere close to where the RDs are, preferably outside of the hyperlimit too.

penny wrote:I'm talking about wedge on wedge err wedge on wedge-like intense gravity field fratricide.

tlb wrote:That may be possible, but fratricide involves both being damaged, if not destroyed. The spider drive ship will not emerge unscathed and might even be immobilized. Not a happy result for the spider.

penny wrote:Remember that wedge on wedge fratricide depends on the sizes of the opposing wedges. I'm considering more of a limited use utility like the destruction of smaller wedges like RD drones.

At any rate I agree that wedge on tractor beam field might or might not result in damage to the LD or its tractors. Some sort of feedback?

There will definitely be feedback. Even an RD wedge is stronger than a single spider tractor beam, that is why wedges cause FTL disturbances which can be detected and the spider drive does not.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I'm talking about wedge on wedge err wedge on wedge-like intense gravity field fratricide.

tlb wrote:That may be possible, but fratricide involves both being damaged, if not destroyed. The spider drive ship will not emerge unscathed and might even be immobilized. Not a happy result for the spider.

penny wrote:Remember that wedge on wedge fratricide depends on the sizes of the opposing wedges. I'm considering more of a limited use utility like the destruction of smaller wedges like RD drones.

At any rate I agree that wedge on tractor beam field might or might not result in damage to the LD or its tractors. Some sort of feedback?

There will definitely be feedback. Even an RD wedge is stronger than a single spider tractor beam, that is why wedges cause FTL disturbances which can be detected and the spider drive does not.

Although not written in stone, an RD's wedge is probably stronger than a single tractor beam. However, is it stronger than the collective distortion in a certain area of space caused by the tractors working in tandem?

Jonathan_S wrote:Don't forget that even a grav-lance, with it's IIRC 250,000 km range, is considered too short range to be an effective weapon!

True. But, IIRC, that was because the wedge powered ships that carried the grav lance are so visible. It was impossible to get a grav lance close enough to the enemy to fire it. Enemies will engage each other long before the range counts down to 250,000 kms.

Also, I don't recall exactly what, but wasn't there some other unrealistic requirement for firing a grav lance? ISTR some sort of a quirky requirement that is unrealistic in a battle.