Hooboy, this is going to be long.
penny wrote:I should hope so! She went to defense plan "Hotel." Hotel literally pulled in its horns (essentially laying up inside a hotel effectively taking a break from engaging the enemy! Hiding? … More like Muhammad Ali’s rope-a -dope. Honor went to defensive mode only. A luxury she will not have at Darius if she is attacked with wedge based ships as well. The NAN”s launches are going to kill a couple of ships on each launch. But even if not, she won't be able to find a target! And she had better find a target fast. A worthwhile target. Not just some insignificant Ghost that decides to sacrifice itself for the MAN.
lmao what
If she keeps her acceleration up, the MAN cant do
anything. Apollo lets her loiter outside the hyper-limit, and from there she can wreck anything in-system with impunity. MAN ships have a significant acceleration disadvantage - spider drives only get at most 200G - and any impeller-based warships are DOA. The GA also has plenty of warships - they will likely show up with
at least 200 SD(P)s, and that sensor capability is going to throw a wrench in any plans the MAN has.
Maybe. But she just might find herself with less than two at Darius after the MAN finishes with her if she can't survive the many many launches commensurate with what a dug in enemy can accomplish in its own HOME SYSTEM until she can localize the enemy.
SOLON WAS NOT A HOME SYSTEM.
I'm not sure it was even a major system!
And when you're away from Home behind enemy lines, missiles don't grow on trees. Neither do Colliers. Furthermore, Colliers are on the menu at Darius.
The MAN is not in any way going to be able to throw the kind of weight in order to kill their fleet, especially since they don't have Apollo. Modern RMN ships are absolutely slathered in EW and CMs, and the LAC screen will gut anything left.
Furthermore, static defenses are just that - static. A GA fleet can loiter outside the hyper-limit and send Apollo screaming in, virtually unopposed. True, colliers don't grow on trees, but guess what - they can remain in hyper until they are needed, and if they have military-grade drives, they can outrun anything the MAN has.
She did not have the offensive power with the two that she had for a moment because the Peeps had fired so many missiles which caused Honor to hide inside of a "Hotel." A preplanned defense, formulated to deal with unanticipated huge launches … and because she was throwing good missiles after bad. The same nightmare will be created against an enemy that cannot be detected! But the launches will be much larger. More plentiful. More frequent. What do you think would have happened to Honor’s two SDs if several undetected gtorps would have been included within the mix of the many missiles that were launched; from all directions?
But your question is unfair and unreasonable. If you only have two ships you do not make one of them a CM warship. There must be some threshold when CM warships become acceptable to add to the mix.
The point… is that when you break into someone else's home, you better expect the kitchen sink to be thrown at you. And you'd better be prepared to duck, and you'd better be prepared to survive it.
SD(P)-CMs would be designed not just for carrying a lot of CMs but designed for dumping a lot of CMs quickly. If the GA is truly aware of the threat environment offered by the MAN then they would be well aware of the need to greatly increase CM capabilities. The GA is not aware of the new threat environment. Their posture of continuing to mimick sitting ducks proves it. And if the GA is working on extended range CMs then good for them. Darius will make them need them. But what sense are extended range CMs when you're already a boxer with a much longer reach against an opponent whose technology will allow it to get inside that reach. Effectively nullifying the GA’s missile range.
And even if the MAN does not increase its FTL range, its stealth will bring the fight inside their own FTL range.
Or you could just load normal SD(P)s with CM pods, getting functionally the same performance, without losing the offensive capability. Graser Torpedoes are also
very slow. Even being generous and giving them ~5,000G of acceleration, that is still tiny, and gives a hell of a lot of time for sensors to pick it up. RMN sensors and RDs are hellish, and I can guarantee that they would be able to spot them.
The MANs stealth is good, but the issue with it is the crawling accelerations. Their ships tend to run about ~200G, with no sidewalls or wedge to protect them. This means that any hit will likely be fatal, and they have no chance in hell of catching even an older SD, let alone modern ones. What will likely happen is they will be nailed by an RD or LAC, which will then rip it apart.
A very mean rich man visited a mountain resort one day and he saw a haggardly dressed poor man with a tattered old coat and laughed at him. "Ha ha ha! I have dozens of very nice coats back home. Don't you wish you had one?" But winter comes unexpectedly in the mountains. It got very very cold in the middle of the day. The poor man with the tattered old coat said to him. “What good are your nice coats now? Don't you wish you had this tattered old coat? You forgot to check the weather of the place you were planning to visit. You packed all of the wrong things."
What good are a million missiles if you are desperately shooting in the dark, in the blind, and in a hurry. I can't recall her name at the moment, but the same bait-n-hook was cast out to the SLN making them waste a lot of missiles on absolutely nothing.
Again, it is going to be hot as hell in Darius. The GA inappropriately dresses for the winter.
You severely underestimate the capability of the GA, and overstate the capability of the MA. The MA has no way in hell to even hope to match them in missile systems, and they can fire from beyond the hyper-limit with impunity. Any wedge-based fleet assets are DOA, and any spider-based assets are outrun by a factor of over 2:1.
Again, which shows that they are completely oblivious to the new threat environment because extended range CMs are completely useless against a boxer that can get inside your reach.
Extended range CMs are mainly for MDMs and/or enemy Apollo developments, and their development makes sense. Again, the MAN cannot catch the GAs fleet, and graser torpedoes are extraordinarily slow compared to normal missiles. They are most likely developing new sensor tech, though, as that is something they do need.
Oh ye of lots of arrogance and little faith. Michelle and Honor did not think the Peeps had the fire control either. But what makes you think they did not hide the fire control. If they had it, do you think they would have shown it?
Their smaller spider drive ships can be repurposed as moving fire control vessels complete with stealth as well.
Ghosts, ectoplasmic apparitions, always did have an unnatural way of communicating.
The MAN cannot hope to output the numbers of missiles necessary to wreck a GA fleet, nor can they hope to avoid Apollo salvos. The GA can dictate the battlefield and the engagement conditions - they don't have to engage spider ships if they don't want to.
Again. Tactics and strategy takes on a whole new paradigm against this foe. Because of their unprecedented stealth, MAN launches will come from much shorter ranges, says the Spiders to the flies who come in much much closer to undetected platforms, mines, shoals of pods, and Spiders lying in wait.
A lot of the GA are going to die at Darius. Ships and personnel alike. If they are as arrogant and haphazard as many of you posters seem to be, they will die in job lots.
The MAN can physically not catch the GA ships if they don't want them to, and getting to that range will be nigh-impossible without being detected. The MAN cannot hope to get enough missiles into range to really do anything.
Well, at least you've got part of the memo. What do you think the MA has been doing since they were introduced?
Hope to be second best you say??? How does that saying go? It isn't the second place team that you need to worry about. You've battled him aplenty. It is that last place team you need to worry about because you don't have a single solitary clue as to what he is going to do. Ditto. The MAlign. Plus! They are number one in the game they play. Namely stealth subterfuge and sucker punch.
Your notion should read as. The GA can not hope to win in an enemy system against technology they barely know anything about against tactics and strategy – they haven't even dreamed of or is even aware of – that only the enemy’s particular tech offers to the MAN. They'll figure it out after a few skirmishes. But the first attack on Darius will have them running home with their tails on fire. If they have any tails left. The GA is simply not ready to go skipping into Darius… Skipper!
HAH! Yeah no, the MAN has no chance in hell. A sucker punch isn't any good if you cant actually get in range, and the MAN is still using conventional tactics in many ways. Their stealth vessels aren't defensive, and can
never work in that role - which is why they will lose.
Yep. The GA always packs a lot of the same luggage. Only problem is when vacationing in Darius they'll need clothing to keep it cool (until the enemy can be localized) because this system is going to make it hot as hell!!!
OOPS. THERE GOES THOSE INSANE SALVOS.
OOPS. FLIGHT PROFILE SUGGESTS CONTROL LINKS. Like @ Solon.
OOPS. THEY HAVE ALSO IMPROVED THEIR FTL.
OOPS. LET ME INTRODUCE YOU TO THE BIGASS SPIDERS.
What arrogance would make a man hyper into a system uninvited against another MAN wielding technology you know absolutely nothing about. Prudence always dictated not to attack a MAN in his own home and underestimate his weaponry and defense plan.
Oops, the spiders cant get in range to do shit, the graser torps cant get in range to do shit, and their missiles are nothing compared to Apollo.
That's a whole lotta assumptions without the MAN's playbook, technical specs or inventory. Once upon a time, many people here didn't think they'd develop FTL. Some people do not think they will break the secret of the mini power plant. Sounds like sick-solly-disease to me.
And although their FTL is short ranged, their stealth allows them to attack from much shorter ranges. From the beginning of warfare, the common strategy of all navies is to figure out some way to get their firepower close enough to the enemy. I know you and I argue about how close the spiders can get. But OTOH you agree that the LDs and other spider technologies are ambush predators, like father like sub. Ambush predators, like arachnids, have a tendency to get close to their prey. What's worse, they set up a web in space and let some unwittingly fly bring them food. I said it once and I'll keep saying it until I'm proved wrong . . .
It makes no sense for the MAN not to develop shorter-ranged insanely high-acceleration missiles that shoot their wad quickly. Technology that complements their tactics and abilities. Their high acceleration CMs is a foreboding of that. When they unveiled them at Galton, my brain went… “uh oh.”
At any rate. You still don't think LDs can get close to the fleet? (Or close enough for government work?) You should hedge that bet to protect your losses. I still think they can. They may not want to risk it, and it might be irresponsible to risk it since nobody since the dawn of time has been able to detect that meddling demon Murphy. But the right Captain can. The one who “can sneak up on a skunk and steal his stink.” Anyway, Stealthy platforms can be massaged into place instead, similar to what was done against the SLN. This is a home system that knows the GA will be coming to dinner. Guess who's going to be on the table? The GA.
The SLN has light-years worse sensor tech then the GA,and they know they are coming. Plus the fact that the MAN ships have no chance in hell of catching them.
GA missiles are far more accurate? Where do you get that spec sheet? They are accurate, yes. But they're accurate against wedge based targets that they have locked up. Locked up because they can see. Simply detecting something is a far cry from locking that something up. And who says the MAN won't have its own hellish ECM? In fact, there's a chance that the MAN’s ECM will perform better. Think about it. GA ECM tries to confound and trick missiles from hitting a very bright target like the wedge. If the MAN’s ECM is even close to the GAs, then trying to confound missiles from hitting an already difficult target to see should be orders of magnitude easier and orders of magnitude more effective. You guys better get off of the made in Manticore mantra. But quickly!
They have Apollo, which made many of the ECM/stealth significantly worse. All they have to do is feed updated tactical information to the Apollos like they do now, and they can pretty easily nail a MAN ship once its spotted. Even worse if they get a RD within range.
Is that going to be a misnomer or fact in Darius? A lot of tech was withheld from Galton. Just as the RMN did to the Peeps and the galaxy at large (SLN) time and time again, how are you so certain the MAN didn't hold back its capabilities? Wait. We know for a fact that they did withhold capabilities. Besides it should be a simple solution to extend their FTL range by deploying a series of their limited range stealthy FTL platforms throughout the system. Platform to platform FTL communications like the old pony Express.
It's pretty clear they don't have Apollo, and even with FTL-based RDs, the manties still slaughter them. Besides, if even one of these platforms is destroyed, the whole network collapses, and I would bet on GA sensors finding at least one.
If the GA lollygags outside the hyperlimit like at Galton their goose will be cooked.
The GA will pack a lot of missiles on the trip to Darius. No doubt. But they will lose their luggage. Bye-bye colliers. And if you think that Darius is going to give the GA the luxury of wasting missiles on a hunch … please! The galaxy is huge. Who knows what space oddities Darius will have. And shooting at empty space is a really bad act of desperation.
Just like at Vietnam, the GA is going to have to cross the hyperlimit. Ghostrider drones will be eaten. Galton barely had any of those high speed CMs. But even if it was handled differently and Galton was given a large allotment of their ingenious CMs but do you think their numbers would even approach the numbers the GA will see at Darius? Seeded throughout the system like mines. Think system defense missiles and system defense CMs.
Or just... hold the colliers in hyper? Really simple, plus they can just outrun the MAN ships. They
can loiter outside the hyper-limit, and very easily too.
What? Hopefully the g-torp will be spotted, just not in time to save everyone. But if a CM ship is there, it can flood the area with CMs in the direction of escape! Even if it isn't detected by sensors, it'll be detected by flaming datum! (Where's kzt when I need him!)
Thinksmarkedly, you're the main proponent pushing firing into the dark hoping to hit something. But you abandon that desperate tactic when it comes to CMs? That is when you fire into the dark. The area close to your ships is a much smaller blind area to cover, in the direction responsible for your flaming datum.
A CM ship provides no benefit over a CM-armed SD(P) in this, and I can guarantee that a graser torpedo will be located before it hits the fleet - simply because of its low accel, meaning it takes a large amount of time to get in range, time for the sensors to find it.
Oh! I knew I forgot something. I need to reread the battle at Solon, I couldhave sworn control links are shared between missiles and CMs. At any rate, unlike regular ships, all of the tubes on a CM SD(P) are available for CMs. CMs are smaller, and a CM ship should be able to kick them out faster. And a CM warship should be less vulnerable to enemy fire because it is shitting out CMs at an alarming rate; which should also make it less susceptible to proximity kills.
One of the things responsible for me advocating CM warships is the limitation of missile tubes being able to fire CMs? Am I wrong about that?
I agree. It would be ironic for a CM ship to be destroyed by a missile. But it won't happen. Anyway, if you want to protect your very valuable Admiral, wrap her up in a cocoon of CM warships. “Get those CM ships in closer!”
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I mean no-? That simply tells em where they are. Normal SD(P)s are already almost all CMs, especially the
Invictus, and its only a matter of giving them CM pods. True, control links matter, but the GA will likely be building a hell of a lot more of those in anyways, and there are proposals to mitigate that. (Pod-based control links, etc.) Proxy kills aren't that much of an issue, given that they will be firing [i]before[i] any missiles detonate.
