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Insanity: Screening elements in the HV

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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Zendikarofthewest   » Tue Feb 18, 2025 9:43 am

Zendikarofthewest
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Her two SD(P)s with their screen were very good at intercepting 11k missiles. And the only reason she couldn't do better was that she only had two SD(P)s. Now let's suppose that one of them was an SD(P)-CM and let's assume that it would have much improved their defences. She would still have lost at Solon because she wouldn't have had the offensive power.

The problem is that either you have to trade off a regular SD(P) for a CM one, or you don't. If you have to trade off, I'm not sure it's a good trade-off. If you don't have to trade off because you can build a lot of ships anyway and you've had time, I don't see why you'd need a CM ship in the first place: if Honor had had a full squadron of regular SD(P)s at Solon (whether 6 or 8), she would have definitely won.

This boils down to: is an SD(P)-CM cheaper to build and operate than a regular SD(P)? Are the logistics simplified?


I would argue not, especially given the fact that your SD(P)-CMs are nigh-useless conventionally, and provide no real advantage beyond CM control links compared to a SD (P) that has a few CM missile pods in its load. Compared to a LAC carrier using Katanas, it is less flexible, more expensive, and more fragile, for little benefit.

If anything I would simply try and cram more missile control links into my LAC carriers and make them the defensive net, and supplement them with a few CM pods carried by my SD (P)s. SD(P)s are in many ways a modular design - the only real difference between a SD(P) and SD(P)-CM would be additional missile control links (Which the SD(Ps) should quite frankly already have), and the fact that the SD (P)-CM doesn't carry any offensive armament.
_____________________________________________________________________

"Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.”
― J. Michael Straczynski

The great resizing is a scam and I hate it, 3,200/4,500m SDs are my canon.
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Zendikarofthewest   » Tue Feb 18, 2025 9:58 am

Zendikarofthewest
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Jonathan_S wrote:Though there's one more thing about a theoretical CM-only podlayer that I didn't mention before -- CMs are smaller than MDMs (shorter certainly) and you might be able to develop a pod sufficiently smaller to let you squeeze in more than 6 pod doors on the aft hammerhead. (I still think the unbalanced design isn't worth it; but thought I should mention this since it occurred to me)


I mean... it isnt really necessary, given that CM canisters exist and MDM pods could just be loaded with them. Adding more doors would likely just decrease structural integrity further.
_____________________________________________________________________

"Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.”
― J. Michael Straczynski

The great resizing is a scam and I hate it, 3,200/4,500m SDs are my canon.
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Theemile   » Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:03 am

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penny wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:But Moriarty only had that many control links because:
a) Essentially the entire platform was fire control "four hundred thousand [tons] wasn't a lot . . . unless all of it was dedicated to fire control"

Sure. But we're talking about the difference in surface area between something the size of a heavy cruiser and a purpose built ship on an SD platform.

[/quote]

Moriarty did not have hundreds of control links antennas on the surface of the Moriarty stations like traditional SDs would- all the control link antennas were on the distributed platforms. The control stations were just command and control systems, with few, high bandwidth antennas to connect to the distributed platforms.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Theemile   » Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:12 am

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Zendikarofthewest wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Though there's one more thing about a theoretical CM-only podlayer that I didn't mention before -- CMs are smaller than MDMs (shorter certainly) and you might be able to develop a pod sufficiently smaller to let you squeeze in more than 6 pod doors on the aft hammerhead. (I still think the unbalanced design isn't worth it; but thought I should mention this since it occurred to me)


I mean... it isnt really necessary, given that CM canisters exist and MDM pods could just be loaded with them. Adding more doors would likely just decrease structural integrity further.


As Jonathan S. pointed out, CM control links and shipkiller control links are separate and not interchangeable. A SD(CMP) would have more CM control links than a SD(P).

That being said, I'm still on the current distributed solution - having your defenses in a handful of ships is dangerous, with single point failure.

As seen in the series, in fleet use, you can't guarantee that you have sufficient specialist units in position, working, and available for your mission. Forex, prior to the series, Flagship CAs (Crusader) were built in a 7:1 ratio to the Prince Adrians class CAs. Sufficient ships were never available to be squadron flags, so when the Star Knights came available, they tended to be used as flagships, not powerful, independent cruisers, as they were intended.
Last edited by Theemile on Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:15 am

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Theemile wrote:Moriarty did not have hundreds of control links antennas on the surface of the Moriarty stations like traditional SDs would- all the control link antennas were on the distributed platforms. The control stations were just command and control systems, with few, high bandwidth antennas to connect to the distributed platforms.

Kind of like the high bandwidth antennas used to link an SD(P) to its Keyholes.

You can squeeze a ton of control channels down a single antenna if it only has to talk to one recipient. (And it's got to be easier to talk to a platform that basically stays in a fixed location relative to you, than to a missile that's moving in 3 dimensions and significantly dopplering away from you - so, on a per-channel basis, the high bandwidth link to the relay is probably vastly more compact)
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Zendikarofthewest   » Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:18 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Um, no. RFC has repeatedly said that offensive (MDM) and defensive (CM) control links are totally separate (doubly true now, when CM control links are still lightspeed and Apollo control links are normally FTL grav coms)

The pair of Invictus Honor had weren't repurposing their offensive control links in order to throw 1648 CMs apiece at the income tsunami - that was all from the dedicated CM control links on the hull and their Keyhole IIs.

So they could have still been rolling pods and firing off Apollo salvos while putting out that defense.


Could swear that isn't correct - Shadow of Saganami made it clear that in order to control your CMs you had to cut your links to offensive missiles.
(Pages 91-92, I think?)
_____________________________________________________________________

"Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.”
― J. Michael Straczynski

The great resizing is a scam and I hate it, 3,200/4,500m SDs are my canon.
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Theemile   » Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:36 am

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Zendikarofthewest wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Um, no. RFC has repeatedly said that offensive (MDM) and defensive (CM) control links are totally separate (doubly true now, when CM control links are still lightspeed and Apollo control links are normally FTL grav coms)

The pair of Invictus Honor had weren't repurposing their offensive control links in order to throw 1648 CMs apiece at the income tsunami - that was all from the dedicated CM control links on the hull and their Keyhole IIs.

So they could have still been rolling pods and firing off Apollo salvos while putting out that defense.


Could swear that isn't correct - Shadow of Saganami made it clear that in order to control your CMs you had to cut your links to offensive missiles.
(Pages 91-92, I think?)


Nope - completely separate - here's a post from David specifically on the subject

I don't believe that I have ever suggested, anywhere, that offensive and defensive control links are interchangeable. I have no idea where the idea came from,


https://web.archive.org/web/20220704001506/https://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/123/0/
Last edited by Theemile on Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:38 am

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penny wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:b) It relayed that fire control through a bunch of pre-placed platforms that were "in effect, a less capable, simpler minded version of the RMN's own Keyholes"

Exactly! A task that I think would be well suited to the Apollo "control missile." Missiles that are already capable enough to control a brood of eight missiles at FTL ranges. Excess ranges that would not be needed for CM warfare. So the FTL ability could be stripped from the Apollo CM.

I'd think there'd be a couple of problems with that.

The minor one is that an off-the-shelf ACM couldn't be used because it carries Mk23 offensive control links, not Mk31/Viper CM control links -- so it can't control CMs. However if, as you propose, you're designing one without FTL you could at the same time swap out the control links for CM ones.

But an Apollo control missile is designed to take orders to attack one ship and expand on them to tell each of its 8 brood what to do in order to best all strike that target. If it was controlling 8 CMs they'd be going after 8 different targets, not one. (you do assign multiple CMs to an incoming missile but in a staggered fashion with each CM belonging to a different salvo -- if 2 from the same salvo tried to both engage the same missile they'd likely take each other out via wedge collision before either could hit the incoming missiles wedge) So that's not something an ACM is really designed for.

Also the CMs are over 40% quicker than the ACM, even in its rarely used full-acceleration setting. So instead of staying tucked in at a constant range behind a relatively compact cluster of 9 attack/ECM missiles until it turns them loose for terminal attacks on a single target an ACM trying to control Mk31s is falling steadily behind (so needs longer ranged control links) a gaggle of widely separating CMs (so again needing longer ranged control links; but now over a wider range of angles, increasing the risks of getting cut off by "gunsmoke" or even its own wedge)

Now, I suppose, you might be able to build a control missile around the Mk31/Viper drive. We don't know how much volume the control links require, so don't know how big a missile you'd need to hold them; meaning we don't know if a CM drive would work for it. But if you could that'd at least let it keep up -- but wouldn't solve the issue of needing to coordinate attacks on 9 widely spread targets instead of 1.
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:49 am

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Zendikarofthewest wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Um, no. RFC has repeatedly said that offensive (MDM) and defensive (CM) control links are totally separate (doubly true now, when CM control links are still lightspeed and Apollo control links are normally FTL grav coms)

The pair of Invictus Honor had weren't repurposing their offensive control links in order to throw 1648 CMs apiece at the income tsunami - that was all from the dedicated CM control links on the hull and their Keyhole IIs.

So they could have still been rolling pods and firing off Apollo salvos while putting out that defense.


Could swear that isn't correct - Shadow of Saganami made it clear that in order to control your CMs you had to cut your links to offensive missiles.
(Pages 91-92, I think?)
Found the text I believe you were talking about -- a simulation of Hexapuma against a Peep force that included a hypothetical Peep MDM-equipped BC. [And one with apparently a not currently possible capability of using two different acceleration profiles on an MDM; something the 2-stage Cataphracts can do but no RMN MDM currently can -- at least according to RFC]
Shadows of Saganami wrote:"Attack broadside launch now!" d'Arezzo announced, and the repeater plot was suddenly speckled with dozens of outgoing missile icons. Helen watched them with satisfaction. In another couple of minutes—
"Missile launch!" d'Arezzo barked abruptly. "Multiple hostile launches! Captain, Bogey One's launched at us!"
Helen's eyes darted away from the missiles she'd sent roaring towards the enemy destroyer. D'Arezzo was right. The enemy flagship had launched missiles at them, and not just a few birds. There were at least thirty in that incoming salvo, and even as she watched, the "fluctuating" impeller wedge firmed back up. Its acceleration shot upward, peaking at over four hundred and eighty gravities, and it spun on its axis. Nineteen seconds after that, a second massive salvo erupted from it as the spin brought its other broadside to bear.
And the second salvo had been fired with an even higher initial acceleration. It was already overtaking the first launch, and Helen knew exactly what was about to happen.
Suckered, goddamn it! she thought. That's no heavy cruiser—it's a frigging battlecruiser pretending to be a heavy cruiser! Just like it was pretending to be damaged so I'd ignore it while I concentrated on swatting destroyers. And those are MDMs. MDMs launched with enough oomph on their first-stage drives to bring them all in as one, huge, time-on-target salvo.
"Helm, hard skew port! Electronics, I want two November-Charlie decoys—deploy them to starboard and high! Tactical, redesignate Bogey One as primary target!"
She heard her voice snapping the orders. They came sharp and clear, almost instantly, despite the consternation and self-reproach boiling through her. But even as she issued them, she knew it was too late.
At the range at which the enemy had fired, Hexapuma had a hundred and fifty seconds to respond before the incoming laser heads reached attack range and detonated. If she'd had another two minutes, maybe even one, the decoys Helen had ordered deployed—too damned late, damn it to hell!—might have had time to suck some of the fire away from their mother ship. As it was, they didn't.
Helen watched her plot and swore as the two Peep broadsides merged . . . and their combined acceleration suddenly leapt upward. That TO over there knew her job, damn it. She had more than enough range to reach her target, so she'd set her birds' first-stage drives to terminate and their second-stage drives to kick in as soon as her separate broadsides had matched base vectors. They would burn out much more rapidly, but the new settings would get them to Hexapuma even more quickly than d'Arezzo—and Helen—had estimated. They'd be coming in faster, as well. And even if she burned out the second stage completely, she'd still have the third. There'd be plenty of time left on their clocks for terminal attack maneuvers.
And the bastards knew exactly what they were doing when they timed it, too, she thought viciously. We have to cut the downlinks to our attack birds to free up the tracking and datalinks to deal with the damned battlecruiser!
The offensive missiles would continue to home on the targeted destroyer, but without guidance from Hexapuma's onboard sensors and computers, the odds of any of them attaining a hard lock went down drastically, especially at such an extended range. Which meant the destroyer was probably going to survive, as well.

Given RFC's categorical statement that those control links cannot be repurposed I see a couple possibilities for how this text could be read (other than an authorial mistake)

1) The skew turn to bring Hexapuma to bear on the battlecruiser might have caused her wedge to interpose between her and the destroyer -- that alone would have cut the downlinks (they can't transmit effectively through the ship's wedge; and a mere heavy cruiser doesn't have any type of Keyhole to allow it to control missiles while rolled)

2) The text said "to deal with the damned battlecruiser" not 'to deal with the missile salvo' -- so they might have been cutting links to the existing Mk16 DDM in order to refocus on sending double-broadsides after the BC.
The text doesn't mention counter-fire from Hexapuma, but it would be crazy not to launch on the BC. If you weather the sucker punch you need those missiles in flight to start hitting back -- if you go full defensive especially against a heavier opponent, you're going to lose it's just a matter of time.
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Zendikarofthewest   » Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:55 am

Zendikarofthewest
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Theemile wrote:
Nope - completely separate - here's a post from David specifically on the subject

I don't believe that I have ever suggested, anywhere, that offensive and defensive control links are interchangeable. I have no idea where the idea came from,



Interesting. Not sure what I really think about that, but whatever. I still don't think that CM-only SD(P)s are good, though - maybe there might be some way to jam CM control links into the pod itself, maybe replacing the Apollo missile?

Also, the quote I was referring to is here, just for context -
"And the bastards knew exactly what they were doing when they timed it, too, she thought viciously. We have to cut the down links to our attack birds to free up the tracking and data links to deal with the damned battlecruiser!
_____________________________________________________________________

"Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.”
― J. Michael Straczynski

The great resizing is a scam and I hate it, 3,200/4,500m SDs are my canon.
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