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Excusez-moi

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Re: Excusez-moi
Post by tlb   » Fri Jan 31, 2025 5:40 pm

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tlb wrote:ThinksMarkedly, you were the one that said the Meyerdahl colonization was long before even Leonard Detweiler (colonization was pre-final war and he was somewhat after). So if the Mayerdahl-B version was created at the same time as the others for that colonization's first wave, then the IQ enhancement also predates the Detweiler schism (and so the several generations later creation of the Malign).
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I did, but I'm conjecturing that the MAlign did give their Harrigton agents in Meyerdahl a bit of a leg up in addition to what the Meyerdahl-B general set contains. That would explain why almost all Harringtons test very high up in IQ compared to their Meyerdahl-B peers. They're not average; they're not even slightly above average. They're ninety-fifth percentile.
I am not sure that follows, because Allison was comparing the Harringtons against the entire Meyerdahl population. Since the Beta are more likely to die, we do not know what the ratios of the various mods are. I agree it appears that she is only talking about the Harringtons specifically; but since her conversation was about the effect of the "IQ enhancer" on the Meyerdahl-Betas, I interpret that as a more general statement.

I am assuming that Allison would notice if there was something different about the Harringtons compared to the average Beta genie. Particularly since we learn later that she is trying to locate the genetic source of Honor's inability to regenerate.
I started out by looking at precisely what was involved in the Meyerdahl genetic mods.
Perhaps the author will make things clearer in some later book or perhaps he will let us continue to struggle with the "secret sauce".

Having said all that, there is something different about the Harringtons that I am not sure is linked to intelligence and was shown most strongly in the short story about Honor's father. We accept that Honor and Nimitz can sense each other because of their bond, but in the story he could telepathically locate Allison at a distance without a link; something I consider much more difficult and impressive.
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Re: Excusez-moi
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Feb 02, 2025 10:06 pm

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So, Lost Lines.
What if a "Lost Line" includes a branch of a family which was originally part of the Alignment but that branch or family or person in the branch were not deemed an appropriate person to be brought in as a initiated member of the Alignment because they don't meet the psychological profile the Alignment requires including moral choices made that may indicate they would reject the Alignment and have to be eliminated? Aside from an active Alignment agent what is actually lost?
How long could or would the Alignment maintain at least a cursory watch on the generations of the family to see what expressions of iterations of the Alignment motivations show up and possibly be useful. If someone becomes "interesting" you still don't have to recreate them, you really only need to get a biological sample and try out using it in a product to the LTPB's breeding programs. It the child (or any one of several variations of a child partially built from part of that sample) shows a promising result they may then already be inside.

Allison -given who she is and what she does for a living- already know all about the Meyerdahl mods that Alfred has and have come down though his family. So when looking at Honor's DNA things that might otherwise stand out would be normals...for Meyerdahl mods. How many generations back to Stephanie and how many of her descendants had or have expressions of traits NOT directly built into the Meyerdahl because combinations of genes from other ancestors outside the Meyerdahl lines reacted to cause something new. Just because you have gene XYZZY, doesn't mean you have are more susceptible to smelling asparagus- genetics gets to be more like a symphony where variations in other genes will cause other things to happen- or not happen. Yes, a lot of Harringtons have been adopted but so have a lot of the Winton Royal Family so just the Meyerdahl can't be singled out as the reason.
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Re: Excusez-moi
Post by penny   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:00 am

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So I assume there's a Meyerdahl [B C D] with the original mod being A?

Do we all agree that the Meyerdahl mod had to have originated in the Sol System? Do note that the IQ mod should be illegal in the eyes of the Beowulf Code, but it was grandfathered in.

And if the Meyerdahl mods originated in the Sol System, then it was available for further improvement on Bewowulf at a time when Leonard Detweiler and the Chou family were both researching genengineering.
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Re: Excusez-moi
Post by penny   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:20 am

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Brigade XO wrote:So, Lost Lines.
What if a "Lost Line" includes a branch of a family which was originally part of the Alignment but that branch or family or person in the branch were not deemed an appropriate person to be brought in as a initiated member of the Alignment because they don't meet the psychological profile the Alignment requires including moral choices made that may indicate they would reject the Alignment and have to be eliminated? Aside from an active Alignment agent what is actually lost?
How long could or would the Alignment maintain at least a cursory watch on the generations of the family to see what expressions of iterations of the Alignment motivations show up and possibly be useful. If someone becomes "interesting" you still don't have to recreate them, you really only need to get a biological sample and try out using it in a product to the LTPB's breeding programs. It the child (or any one of several variations of a child partially built from part of that sample) shows a promising result they may then already be inside.

Allison -given who she is and what she does for a living- already know all about the Meyerdahl mods that Alfred has and have come down though his family. So when looking at Honor's DNA things that might otherwise stand out would be normals...for Meyerdahl mods. How many generations back to Stephanie and how many of her descendants had or have expressions of traits NOT directly built into the Meyerdahl because combinations of genes from other ancestors outside the Meyerdahl lines reacted to cause something new. Just because you have gene XYZZY, doesn't mean you have are more susceptible to smelling asparagus- genetics gets to be more like a symphony where variations in other genes will cause other things to happen- or not happen. [Ab]Yes, a lot of Harringtons have been adopted but so have a lot of the Winton Royal Family so just the Meyerdahl can't be singled out as the reason.[/b]


I'm not so sure we can infer that from the data we have Brigade. We don't exactly know what manner of mod the Wintons have, plus textev says the Winton mod and Meyerdahl-B is a lot alike.

I certainly agree that "lost" can mean a whole lot of things. Especially since the Mad Wizard Weber seems to have thrown the bone in just to see a pack of ravenous wolves fight over it. :-)

Anyway, apply the notion that lines can have as many as 5,000 members that you all are found of pointing out. That's a lot of stalking across the vast Hitchhiker's Galaxy.
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Re: Excusez-moi
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:33 am

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penny wrote:So I assume there's a Meyerdahl [B C D] with the original mod being A?

Do we all agree that the Meyerdahl mod had to have originated in the Sol System? Do note that the IQ mod should be illegal in the eyes of the Beowulf Code, but it was grandfathered in.

And if the Meyerdahl mods originated in the Sol System, then it was available for further improvement on Bewowulf at a time when Leonard Detweiler and the Chou family were both researching genengineering.

I don't recall the Beowulf code forbidding (new) IQ enhancement.
It has prohibitions against posthumous clones (unless stipulated in the deceased's will) [EoH]; manipulation in order to predetermine the sex of a child [EoH]; self-replicating bio-nanotech [UH]; weaponized biotech; and "genetic uplift of the species" [UH] or using genetic modification for eugenic policies.

Though I guess that applying an IQ booster as a locked trait to an entire heavy-world mod might be trending dangerously towards the prohibitions on widespread "uplift" (with its smacking of eugenics) -- that may be why TEIF called the Meyerdahl mods "grandfathered in" before going on to say "the Beowulf Code has never objected to genetic modification to suit planetary environments". Though elsewhere TEIF says the pre-Final War mods were "grandfathered in" during the period after that war when even designing new enhancements for planetary environments was "pretty much anathematized". So the "grandfathered in" might be referring only to that historic period of no new genetic enhancement work (the period ended, in no small part, thanks to genetic work performed on Beowulf under their new Code)

Now AoV does say "We've learned enough more about human intelligence since then that reputable geneticists refuse to tinker with it except under extraordinary conditions." But that's not phrased as it being a violation of the Code -- just something that's come to be seen as a bad idea outside of extraordinary circumstances. So the geneticists don't appear to be forbidden from performing it; they just don't want to because the side effects have come to be seen as not normally worth the benefits.
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Re: Excusez-moi
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:49 am

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penny wrote:Do we all agree that the Meyerdahl mod had to have originated in the Sol System? Do note that the IQ mod should be illegal in the eyes of the Beowulf Code, but it was grandfathered in.

And if the Meyerdahl mods originated in the Sol System, then it was available for further improvement on Bewowulf at a time when Leonard Detweiler and the Chou family were both researching genengineering.


No, we do not agree with that. It's equally possible that the Meyerdahl mods were created in the Meyerdahl system after the colony expedition arrived there and had to modify itself. The same happened to Grayson, after all, and those had much less knowledge about genetics and a much higher aversion to it.

But gravity is not going to be missed in the survey. So it's possible - indeed, very likely - that the original Meyerdahl mods were made on Sol before the colony expedition launched, knowing they were going to be needed.

And it's also equally possible that the original was on Sol but the "mod B" was done afterwards, in Meyerdahl.

We simply don't know.

None of which changes your second paragraph: those mods were widely known at the time of Leonard Detweiler. There were literally billions of people with them.
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Re: Excusez-moi
Post by penny   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:54 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
penny wrote:So I assume there's a Meyerdahl [B C D] with the original mod being A?

Do we all agree that the Meyerdahl mod had to have originated in the Sol System? Do note that the IQ mod should be illegal in the eyes of the Beowulf Code, but it was grandfathered in.

And if the Meyerdahl mods originated in the Sol System, then it was available for further improvement on Bewowulf at a time when Leonard Detweiler and the Chou family were both researching genengineering.

I don't recall the Beowulf code forbidding (new) IQ enhancement.
It has prohibitions against posthumous clones (unless stipulated in the deceased's will) [EoH]; manipulation in order to predetermine the sex of a child [EoH]; self-replicating bio-nanotech [UH]; weaponized biotech; and "genetic uplift of the species" [UH] or using genetic modification for eugenic policies.

Though I guess that applying an IQ booster as a locked trait to an entire heavy-world mod might be trending dangerously towards the prohibitions on widespread "uplift" (with its smacking of eugenics) -- that may be why TEIF called the Meyerdahl mods "grandfathered in" before going on to say "the Beowulf Code has never objected to genetic modification to suit planetary environments". Though elsewhere TEIF says the pre-Final War mods were "grandfathered in" during the period after that war when even designing new enhancements for planetary environments was "pretty much anathematized". So the "grandfathered in" might be referring only to that historic period of no new genetic enhancement work (the period ended, in no small part, thanks to genetic work performed on Beowulf under their new Code)

Now AoV does say "We've learned enough more about human intelligence since then that reputable geneticists refuse to tinker with it except under extraordinary conditions." But that's not phrased as it being a violation of the Code -- just something that's come to be seen as a bad idea outside of extraordinary circumstances. So the geneticists don't appear to be forbidden from performing it; they just don't want to because the side effects have come to be seen as not normally worth the benefits.

I digested it differently.

drunken wiki wrote:Genetic Modification

The Code specifically prohibited the modification of the human genome following the horrors of the Final War, though many existing pre-war modification packages that were designed to aid the colonization of planets with hostile environments were grandfathered into the Code.


The IQ mod does not aid the colonization of planets. Certainly a lot of dumb people are counterproductive to colonization. But at the same time, dumb people are not sent on a colony expedition. And regular run of the mill non genies can do the job just fine; or more appropriately, the Meyerdahl mod minus the IQ enhancement. Not to mention that crazy people aren't a good choice for colonization either. Remember, the IQ mod comes at the expense of something else.

It just seems to taste too much like having your cake and eating it too. Can't have it both ways. That is the one thing I always thought that Leonard might've fixated on. The hippocracy of it all.
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Re: Excusez-moi
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 1:08 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, we do not agree with that. It's equally possible that the Meyerdahl mods were created in the Meyerdahl system after the colony expedition arrived there and had to modify itself. The same happened to Grayson, after all, and those had much less knowledge about genetics and a much higher aversion to it.

But gravity is not going to be missed in the survey. So it's possible - indeed, very likely - that the original Meyerdahl mods were made on Sol before the colony expedition launched, knowing they were going to be needed.

And it's also equally possible that the original was on Sol but the "mod B" was done afterwards, in Meyerdahl.

We simply don't know.

Speaking of 'we simply don't know' - I can't find anything that says when the Meyerdahl First Wave left (other than before the Final War, which started somewhere in the 9th century of the Diaspora), nor where it left from.

It doesn't seem impossible that Meyerdahl wasn't even settled directly from Earth, but might have actually been a 2nd generation colony. (Unlikely given the massive resources it took to make a reaction drive sub-light colony ship; but the text seems silent on the matter)
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Re: Excusez-moi
Post by penny   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 1:28 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
penny wrote:Do we all agree that the Meyerdahl mod had to have originated in the Sol System? Do note that the IQ mod should be illegal in the eyes of the Beowulf Code, but it was grandfathered in.

And if the Meyerdahl mods originated in the Sol System, then it was available for further improvement on Bewowulf at a time when Leonard Detweiler and the Chou family were both researching genengineering.


No, we do not agree with that. It's equally possible that the Meyerdahl mods were created in the Meyerdahl system after the colony expedition arrived there and had to modify itself. The same happened to Grayson, after all, and those had much less knowledge about genetics and a much higher aversion to it.

But gravity is not going to be missed in the survey. So it's possible - indeed, very likely - that the original Meyerdahl mods were made on Sol before the colony expedition launched, knowing they were going to be needed.

And it's also equally possible that the original was on Sol but the "mod B" was done afterwards, in Meyerdahl.

We simply don't know.

None of which changes your second paragraph: those mods were widely known at the time of Leonard Detweiler. There were literally billions of people with them.

Unless I'm digesting the facts incorrectly that doesn't seem plausible. Meyerdahl is a heavy grav world as well, yet textev says the First Wave of heavy grav mods went to Sphinx. Why wouldn't the first mods have been for Meyerdahl itself, even if created on Meyerdahl? And if it wasn't created on Meyerdahl then it is definitely a wash.
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Re: Excusez-moi
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Feb 03, 2025 4:23 am

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penny wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
No, we do not agree with that. It's equally possible that the Meyerdahl mods were created in the Meyerdahl system after the colony expedition arrived there and had to modify itself. The same happened to Grayson, after all, and those had much less knowledge about genetics and a much higher aversion to it.

But gravity is not going to be missed in the survey. So it's possible - indeed, very likely - that the original Meyerdahl mods were made on Sol before the colony expedition launched, knowing they were going to be needed.

And it's also equally possible that the original was on Sol but the "mod B" was done afterwards, in Meyerdahl.

We simply don't know.

None of which changes your second paragraph: those mods were widely known at the time of Leonard Detweiler. There were literally billions of people with them.

Unless I'm digesting the facts incorrectly that doesn't seem plausible. Meyerdahl is a heavy grav world as well, yet textev says the First Wave of heavy grav mods went to Sphinx. Why wouldn't the first mods have been for Meyerdahl itself, even if created on Meyerdahl? And if it wasn't created on Meyerdahl then it is definitely a wash.

I understood the text differently

Not that "the First Wave of heavy grav mods went to Sphinx" but that people descended from the First Wave immigrants to Meyerdahl later immigrated from Meyerdahl to Sphyx.

That seems to track with A Beautiful Friendship, where Stephanie (who was born on Meyerdahl and at 11 T-years old immigrated to Sphynx with her parents) is feeling sorry for herself
More Than Honor: A Beautiful Friendship wrote:She [Stephanie] sighed again, with an edge of wistful misery, and wished her great-great-great-great-whatever grandparents hadn't volunteered for the Meyerdahl First Wave. Her parents had sat her down to explain what that meant shortly after her eighth birthday. She'd already heard the word "genie," though she hadn't realized that, technically at least, it applied to her

So about 3 years before moving to Sphynx she'd had the talk about being a genie due to descending (all those generations) from the First Wave. And FWIW that was about 90 years after Sphynx was settled; around 600 years after the Meyerdahl expedition launched (hence all those "greats").

Oh and from IEH
In Enemy Hands wrote:The Harringtons are descended from the Meyerdahl First Wave, which was one of the first-in fact, I think it was the first-heavy-grav modification
So, yes, the heavy-grav modification were for Meyerdahl's colonists.

And it wasn't just one set of mods, of course we knew this because Honor's descended from the Meyerdahl Betas; and you presumably wouldn't have Beta mods without Meyerdahl Alpha mods. And in fact
Ashes of Victory wrote:I [Allison Harrington] started out by looking at precisely what was involved in the Meyerdahl genetic mods. Most people don't realize it, but there were actually four different modification sets within the single project.
[snip]
what all the Meyerdahl recipients got: more efficient muscles, enhanced reaction speed, stronger bones, tougher cardiovascular and respiratory systems, and so on. But the Meyerdahl Betas also got what they used to call an 'IQ enhancer.'



Most likely all four sets were made before the (sub-light) colony ship headed off for Meyerdahl. But the text doesn't say. So it's possible (but seems unlikely to me) that one or more of the four original mods were done after arrival. But in any case the Meyerdahl settlers had heavy world mods from (or nearly from) the beginning of their settlement. And as successful heavy worlders (thanks to those mods) many were recruited to move to Sphynx when the MBS needed additional colonists after the losses of the plague years.
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