Excusez-moi

penny wrote:I shall agree again, but again that agreement is tentative. In the same vein of your post, I think you are discounting the possibility of circumstances beyond an entire line's control that might force a mass migration. The galaxy was and still is a bit prejudiced when it comes to genies. Consider the circumstances of the mass migration of an entire race of Jews in Germany, let alone that of simply an extended family.


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The MAlign seems to use "lost" to denote members of an Alpha line who aren't in the Onion -- who do not know that their genetics were modified by the LRDB and are ignorant of the Detweiler, the MAlign, and its goals.


An entire Alpha line family being forced (or choosing) to migrate wouldn't remove that knowledge. They'd still be able to work towards those goals, still be able to induct new family members into the secret (if they judged them suitable). They might temporarily have their communication channels to main Onion disrupted -- but that shouldn't cause them to be automatically "lost"; not in the way the MAlign seems to use the term. (Now the specific long term MAlign plan that had that family planted in the city/planet/system they were just driven from was presumably ruined by whatever forced the migration; but a failed plan doesn't equate to the family line being lost)

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:I shall agree again, but again that agreement is tentative. In the same vein of your post, I think you are discounting the possibility of circumstances beyond an entire line's control that might force a mass migration. The galaxy was and still is a bit prejudiced when it comes to genies. Consider the circumstances of the mass migration of an entire race of Jews in Germany, let alone that of simply an extended family.


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The MAlign seems to use "lost" to denote members of an Alpha line who aren't in the Onion -- who do not know that their genetics were modified by the LRDB and are ignorant of the Detweiler, the MAlign, and its goals.


An entire Alpha line family being forced (or choosing) to migrate wouldn't remove that knowledge. They'd still be able to work towards those goals, still be able to induct new family members into the secret (if they judged them suitable). They might temporarily have their communication channels to main Onion disrupted -- but that shouldn't cause them to be automatically "lost"; not in the way the MAlign seems to use the term. (Now the specific long term MAlign plan that had that family planted in the city/planet/system they were just driven from was presumably ruined by whatever forced the migration; but a failed plan doesn't equate to the family line being lost)

True. True. It all depends. I've always parsed the whole thing internally as if lines are not simply “sleeping.” As was the conversation we had on the difference between sleeping and being inactive some time ago. In that thread, I think it was pointed out that there has to be a “First Contact” made (sort of an initial debriefing as it were), both before letting the line loose into the wild, and again when activation is required. Then there has to be First Contact made between the family member who has been entrusted with the knowledge with family members who he deems trustworthy.

But a migration could take place at any point before either leg of First Contact is made. Especially if the family member who is in the know is killed or dies. Causing a disconnect in the entire cycle.

I would also tend to think the system where a relocation takes place, and the new employment, might play a huge role in becoming “lost and found.” Getting to someone who has somehow ended up in the Anderman Empire probably should be presumed lost. It might not be an easy or safe thing to contact someone even in the MBS who has become embedded in certain positions.

I would imagine making First Contact on either leg is a delicate matter that has to be massaged gently. There has to be a proper time. Regardless, it shouldn't be easy. And it could all end catastrophically; ending in death. Consider the common saying “ I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.”

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:But question #5 on my list is asking in a polite manner whether there could be any... (careful careful) "black sheep" in the family that isn't talked about; because of the difference in skin tone mentioned in the books that someone already posted. I was thinking that MAlign "alterations" could have been introduced at any point.

It might be as simple as saying that skin tone is not locked in, so will vary to some extent depending on the non-Winton parent.

Now don't anyone go emailing the author telling him I don't think he knows what he's doing. That isn't what I am saying.

I have always questioned this notion. In the words of Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park, “Life finds a way.”

****** *

Several cases of parents giving birth to an opposite race child.

https://www.google.com/search?q=whie+gi ... j7CnPtiu0M


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.soweta ... orn-white/


https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/03/living/f ... index.html


https://www.google.com/search?q=twin+gi ... HnFCg,st:0

I agree these rare events are a far cry away from the HV’s locked genomes becoming unlocked, but still, “Life finds a way.”

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penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The MAlign seems to use "lost" to denote members of an Alpha line who aren't in the Onion -- who do not know that their genetics were modified by the LRDB and are ignorant of the Detweiler, the MAlign, and its goals.


An entire Alpha line family being forced (or choosing) to migrate wouldn't remove that knowledge. They'd still be able to work towards those goals, still be able to induct new family members into the secret (if they judged them suitable). They might temporarily have their communication channels to main Onion disrupted -- but that shouldn't cause them to be automatically "lost"; not in the way the MAlign seems to use the term. (Now the specific long term MAlign plan that had that family planted in the city/planet/system they were just driven from was presumably ruined by whatever forced the migration; but a failed plan doesn't equate to the family line being lost)

True. True. It all depends. I've always parsed the whole thing internally as if lines are not simply “sleeping.” As was the conversation we had on the difference between sleeping and being inactive some time ago. In that thread, I think it was pointed out that there has to be a “First Contact” made (sort of an initial debriefing as it were), both before letting the line loose into the wild, and again when activation is required. Then there has to be First Contact made between the family member who has been entrusted with the knowledge with family members who he deems trustworthy.

But a migration could take place at any point before either leg of First Contact is made. Especially if the family member who is in the know is killed or dies. Causing a disconnect in the entire cycle.

I would also tend to think the system where a relocation takes place, and the new employment, might play a huge role in becoming “lost and found.” Getting to someone who has somehow ended up in the Anderman Empire probably should be presumed lost. It might not be an easy or safe thing to contact someone even in the MBS who has become embedded in certain positions.

I would imagine making First Contact on either leg is a delicate matter that has to be massaged gently. There has to be a proper time. Regardless, it shouldn't be easy. And it could all end catastrophically; ending in death. Consider the common saying “ I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.”

First contacts would indeed seem to be delicate matters. And yes, if they misjudged and trusted the wrong person with the secret, someone who became an unexpected security risk, they might well have to ensure that that family member was killed.

But I got the impression that it usually wasn't just "the family member" who was in the know, one person picking one one successor. My impression was that the MAlign wanted as much of the family as could be trusted to be in the know to facilitate their long term missions (for those embedded in other societies) or to be available to work on MAlign projects (for those Alpha lines based on Mesa).

So I'd assume that you'd need to lose quite a few extended family members before a family as a whole lost the knowledge of the Onion. (And hence lost the ability to evaluate and induct additional members)

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The MAlign seems to use "lost" to denote members of an Alpha line who aren't in the Onion -- who do not know that their genetics were modified by the LRDB and are ignorant of the Detweiler, the MAlign, and its goals.


An entire Alpha line family being forced (or choosing) to migrate wouldn't remove that knowledge. They'd still be able to work towards those goals, still be able to induct new family members into the secret (if they judged them suitable). They might temporarily have their communication channels to main Onion disrupted -- but that shouldn't cause them to be automatically "lost"; not in the way the MAlign seems to use the term. (Now the specific long term MAlign plan that had that family planted in the city/planet/system they were just driven from was presumably ruined by whatever forced the migration; but a failed plan doesn't equate to the family line being lost)

True. True. It all depends. I've always parsed the whole thing internally as if lines are not simply “sleeping.” As was the conversation we had on the difference between sleeping and being inactive some time ago. In that thread, I think it was pointed out that there has to be a “First Contact” made (sort of an initial debriefing as it were), both before letting the line loose into the wild, and again when activation is required. Then there has to be First Contact made between the family member who has been entrusted with the knowledge with family members who he deems trustworthy.

But a migration could take place at any point before either leg of First Contact is made. Especially if the family member who is in the know is killed or dies. Causing a disconnect in the entire cycle.

I would also tend to think the system where a relocation takes place, and the new employment, might play a huge role in becoming “lost and found.” Getting to someone who has somehow ended up in the Anderman Empire probably should be presumed lost. It might not be an easy or safe thing to contact someone even in the MBS who has become embedded in certain positions.

I would imagine making First Contact on either leg is a delicate matter that has to be massaged gently. There has to be a proper time. Regardless, it shouldn't be easy. And it could all end catastrophically; ending in death. Consider the common saying “ I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.”

Jonathan_S wrote:First contacts would indeed seem to be delicate matters. And yes, if they misjudged and trusted the wrong person with the secret, someone who became an unexpected security risk, they might well have to ensure that that family member was killed.

But I got the impression that it usually wasn't just "the family member" who was in the know, one person picking one one successor. My impression was that the MAlign wanted as much of the family as could be trusted to be in the know to facilitate their long term missions (for those embedded in other societies) or to be available to work on MAlign projects (for those Alpha lines based on Mesa).

So I'd assume that you'd need to lose quite a few extended family members before a family as a whole lost the knowledge of the Onion. (And hence lost the ability to evaluate and induct additional members)

Well, at one point into storyline I didn't think it would be simply one person entrusted with the secret either. More than one person in the know would be logical, to ensure at least one would be alive when the time comes. But storyline gave us at least one incident of a first contact if someone remembers it. And I don't recall there being mention of someone else who knew and having to coordinate that activation with others who knew. But since I can't remember the details I could be wrong.

At any rate, there's another side of first contact as well that could bite one in the ass and also cause a disconnection. Let's say that a family isn't doing too well on their native planet and relocates to another system like the MBS. Let's say that family is doing very well for themselves on Manticore and really love their new lives and the lives of their loved ones who are happy for the first time. Perhaps one or more of the teenagers or loved ones were suicidal in their former life, addicted on drugs, etc., etc., and the relocation has completely turned them around. Well, blood is thicker than water and by the same token that the person who is contacted may have to be killed, the person contacted may turn around and have him killed. “No! No! No! My family is happier than I have ever known them to be. Happy for the first time ever! I won't allow you to shatter that peace!”

It is very common actually. I watch true crime stories on the show The FBI Files. There is a common plot where a family member becomes terroristic and wants to wage war against democracy. When other family members are not amenable to his newly fomented antagonistic nature, he kills them. In one incident the guy killed his own wife.

So, first contact can be deadly for either party. Causing a disconnect of that particular cog. I would think it would be inadvisable for several people in the know to be aware of each other, but I can also think of reasons they should be aware of each other. But if they are aware of each other and if information about the other's existence is shared during one of the first contacts, then all of the first contacters could be killed.

Also, losing knowledge of the Onion is not the only danger. Losing interest in the Onion is also disastrous and would lead to getting lost.


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tlb wrote:It might be as simple as saying that skin tone is not locked in, so will vary to some extent depending on the non-Winton parent.

penny wrote:Now don't anyone go emailing the author telling him I don't think he knows what he's doing. That isn't what I am saying.

I have always questioned this notion. In the words of Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park, “Life finds a way.”

****** *

Several cases of parents giving birth to an opposite race child.

--- skip ---

I agree these rare events are a far cry away from the HV’s locked genomes becoming unlocked, but still, “Life finds a way.”

What exactly are you questioning? There was a case in England a couple years ago of authorities taking away a blond child from a Gypsy couple. They then had to make apologies when DNA proved the child was theirs.

Race is a social category and not a biological one. There is enough complications in our immediate ancestry to introduce the low frequency gene popping up and resulting in a surprise.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:It might be as simple as saying that skin tone is not locked in, so will vary to some extent depending on the non-Winton parent.

penny wrote:Now don't anyone go emailing the author telling him I don't think he knows what he's doing. That isn't what I am saying.

I have always questioned this notion. In the words of Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park, “Life finds a way.”

****** *

Several cases of parents giving birth to an opposite race child.

--- skip ---

I agree these rare events are a far cry away from the HV’s locked genomes becoming unlocked, but still, “Life finds a way.”

What exactly are you questioning? There was a case in England a couple years ago of authorities taking away a blond child from a Gypsy couple. They then had to make apologies when DNA proved the child was theirs.

Race is a social category and not a biological one. There is enough complications in our immediate ancestry to introduce the low frequency gene popping up and resulting in a surprise.

Questioning whether anything can truly be locked.

tlb wrote:It might be as simple as saying that skin tone is not locked in, so will vary to some extent depending on the non-Winton parent.

penny wrote:Now don't anyone go emailing the author telling him I don't think he knows what he's doing. That isn't what I am saying.

I have always questioned this notion. In the words of Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park, “Life finds a way.”

tlb wrote:What exactly are you questioning?

penny wrote:Questioning whether anything can truly be locked.

But we KNOW that this thing can be done; look at the Scrags and Meyerdahl-B (both still breeding true since the final war). But notice that no one has ever said that all Meyerdahl-B genies look the same, Honor still has features from her mother. Even the Scrags, with more inbreeding, do not look exactly the same.

I know when these concepts were first introduced in the books, there were biology students saying on this forum that it could NOT be done. But recently scientists have been able to do it with insects (create a mutation that will be passed to ALL progeny, whether from the father or the mother) and maybe in a couple thousand years it will possible with mammals (I hope there is a Beowulf Code by that time).

PS: The same process that works perfectly in insects, does not work perfectly in higher animals at present. But it does work at better than the normal genetic rate with them.

PPS: Jurassic Park had major design flaws that were introduced as part of the script, like one part of the enclosure wall had a 50 foot drop; but another part could be stepped over by a T-Rex when there was a power failure. The lack of fail-safe procedures is galling. There is another movie (whose name I do not remember) with an insane asylum having electronic locks on all the doors and the default behavior in a power failure of unlocking everything.

tlb wrote:I know when these concepts were first introduced in the books, there were biology students saying on this forum that it could NOT be done. But recently scientists have been able to do it with insects (create a mutation that will be passed to ALL progeny, whether from the father or the mother) and maybe in a couple thousand years it will possible with mammals (I hope there is a Beowulf Code by that time).

PS: The same process that works perfectly in insects, does not work perfectly in higher animals at present. But it does work at better than the normal genetic rate with them.

And frankly, even if that wasn't true, within the Honorverse genetics (like physics) works exactly how the Author wants it to.

So, when discussing the books, we can treat it as a known and reliable mechanism -- even if it ultimately turns out you can't actually make any real-world version for humans.

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:I know when these concepts were first introduced in the books, there were biology students saying on this forum that it could NOT be done. But recently scientists have been able to do it with insects (create a mutation that will be passed to ALL progeny, whether from the father or the mother) and maybe in a couple thousand years it will possible with mammals (I hope there is a Beowulf Code by that time).

PS: The same process that works perfectly in insects, does not work perfectly in higher animals at present. But it does work at better than the normal genetic rate with them.

And frankly, even if that wasn't true, within the Honorverse genetics (like physics) works exactly how the Author wants it to.

So, when discussing the books, we can treat it as a known and reliable mechanism -- even if it ultimately turns out you can't actually make any real-world version for humans.

Creating a mutation that will be passed upstream is totally different and a far cry from creating a mutation that won't be passed upstream. Which is what we are discussing.

Life finds a way to exist. Not desist.


By the same token Jonathan, the author is free to pen an exception at some point in the future. Otherwise I agree. I was simply labeling that pill as another large one, for me anyway, to swallow.