Excusez-moi

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:My apology. I wasn't clear. I know the Winton's specific genetic makeup is unknown. But I assumed that it could or would be found in a MAlign database of all available possibilities. Due to the MA's extensive research in that area. I would wager that the MA knows all possible concoctions of genetic soup; just not the specific recipe cooked up for the Wintons. But that might not be the case. I'm just trying to appease the conspiracy theorist lurking inside my head who questions why the Winton's genetic makeup would need to be classified.

I do understand, mind you, why one may want to keep the fact that one is a genie a secret in the first place. Like in Honor's case in the face of those who are prejudiced against genies.

But if it gets out that one is a genie, then why not the type as well? Unless that type carries some sort of a stigma like in the case of Bardasano. You know, the crazy gene???

But what is not clear is whether the classified bit implies that it is widely known that the Winton's are genies, just now what type.

So far as we know, Winton IS the type (meaning only they have it) and everything about it is a secret (as the text says). How would the MA even know if they had something similar in their database, unless they got a DNA sample?

PS: In what language is this thread's title? It looks something like French, but I believe French would be "excusez-moi" (sort of the Espresso versus Expresso thing reversed).

I am uncertain about that part of it. Does textev make it clear that ‘Winton’ is the actual genotype or is Winton simply an appropriate placeholder to represent a specific unknown but common genotype? As in somebody saying “Whatever the Winton’s have.” Which would lead to the makeup being referred to as the Winton genotype.

I’m not saying you are not correct; but if you are, it comes with a host of questions. From who and from where would their unique genetic makeup have originated? I thought that all of the parties who were dabbling in genetic futures (pun intended) were located on Beowulf. The Chous and the Detweilers.

IINM, the SL was playing in the market for genies as well. So the Winton’s genotype could have originated on Sol. Whatever the case may be, I do not recall any mention of the Wintons at one point having their own geneticist.

Late edit: Somehow I missed tlb's and one of Thinksmarkedly's posts on the previous page.

penny wrote:I am uncertain about that part of it. Does textev make it clear that ‘Winton’ is the actual genotype or is Winton simply an appropriate placeholder to represent a specific unknown but common genotype? As in somebody saying “Whatever the Winton’s have.” Which would lead to the makeup being referred to as the Winton genotype.

I’m not saying you are not correct; but if you are, it comes with a host of questions. From who and from where would their unique genetic makeup have originated? I thought that all of the parties who were dabbling in genetic futures (pun intended) were located on Beowulf. The Chous and the Detweilers.

IINM, the SL was playing in the market for genies as well. So the Winton’s genotype could have originated on Sol. Whatever the case may be, I do not recall any mention of the Wintons at one point having their own geneticist.

There is only a little bit more; from Ashes of Victory:

Chapter 17 wrote:But the Meyerdahl Betas also got what they used to call an 'IQ enhancer.'
-- skip --
"I take it," Honor said very carefully, "that your research didn't indicate that we were one of those 'less successful efforts'?"
"Oh, heavens, no! In fact, the Meyerdahl Betas and the Wintons have quite a lot in common. I don't have as complete a degree of access to the Winton records, of course, but even from the incomplete data in the public files, it's obvious that whoever designed the Winton modification for Roger Winton's parents was remarkably successful. As was the team that put together the Meyerdahl Beta package. I'd like to say they succeeded because they were so good at their jobs, but I rather doubt that was the case, particularly in light of their relatively primitive understanding of just what they were tinkering with. I think that, as we geneticists like to put it when discussing the vast evolutionary sweep of upward human development, they lucked out.

The public records she mentioned might still be closed to all without her connections.

Note that she seems to be saying (as did the previous text) that Roger Winton was the first with the modifications. Perhaps these are the only modifications that she knows something about, but there could have been earlier ones (this seems more likely, on the other hand which King Roger are we talking about?).

PS: I think the convention might be that if we say Queen Elizabeth, then we mean the daughter of King Henry VIII; but we have to put the number on any later one, so Queen Elizabeth II reigned after World War II. Therefore if we just have King Roger, then it refers to the leader of Manticore when it was created a kingdom, and the most recent of that name was King Roger III. However this can get messed up in informal speech.

In any case, there still could have been other modifications before the ones that she knows.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Is there a possibility that the Wintons are a lost Alpha line as well?

This one is a definitely NO.

The Wintons left Earth in 775 PD, several centuries before Leonard Detweiler was born on Beowulf.

It's possible they have had genetic updates since arriving in the MBS (I would say it's quite likely), by the time the MAlign would have taken any interest in Manticore - probably in Stephanie's time, we'll see more about that in a month and a half - they were already the Royals and too protected for the MAlign to do anything about. None of which would qualify as a MAlign line anyway.

Certainly they didn't start as an Alpha line.

Though I guess it isn't utterly impossible that one of the commoners who married into the family over the centuries was, somehow, a lost Alpha. That would have gotten a bit of Alpha line (or what was then Alpha line) DNA into the Winton family. (I doubt RFC would go there after throwing in the possible red herring about Honor's possible Alpha status -- that's be going to the same well too often; but from a strictly in-universe perspective I guess the possibility would be marginally more than 0)

penny wrote:
4. If the Alignment says Honor is a product of a lost Alpha line, and Honor is so successful as a genie, then why wouldn’t the Alignment attempt to reproduce Honor’s line in batches?

The upcoming Treecat novel introduces a Harrington cousin who is a member in good standing of the "good" Alignment (not the Detweiler one). He is a bigshot xenobiologist professor at some prestigious university in the civilized Galaxy who goes to help Manticore with the treecat sentience issue (and secretly to assess their relevance to the good Alignment goals). His "handler" (from the real Alignment who has ulterior plans of course) muses that because said cousin is too ethical, he cannot know about those ulterior plans - so here I guess is why the Harrington line disappeared, because while it fit the "good" Alignment, it never could have fit the real one...

See here:

"Yet that was okay, Portnoy reflected. Thinking about things like that was one of his jobs, not Duncan’s. On the other hand, Duncan understood the need for the Alignment to consider every possible advantage in its mission, cast the widest possible net as it considered ways in which the genome might be improved. And he understood that required research and that sometimes clandestine research had to embrace clandestine means to achieve its ends. So in the end, he’d…accommodate the necessary “specialist,” and Portnoy was glad, because he’d known Duncan Harrington since boyhood. Duncan was too good a man—too good a friend—to be burdened with those sorts of decisions, so Abner Portnoy would make certain he wasn’t."

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Is there a possibility that the Wintons are a lost Alpha line as well?

This one is a definitely NO.

The Wintons left Earth in 775 PD, several centuries before Leonard Detweiler was born on Beowulf.

It's possible they have had genetic updates since arriving in the MBS (I would say it's quite likely), by the time the MAlign would have taken any interest in Manticore - probably in Stephanie's time, we'll see more about that in a month and a half - they were already the Royals and too protected for the MAlign to do anything about. None of which would qualify as a MAlign line anyway.

Thanks. Honestly I never thought to check the timeline.

But question #5 on my list is asking in a polite manner whether there could be any... (careful careful) "black sheep" in the family that isn't talked about; because of the difference in skin tone mentioned in the books that someone already posted. I was thinking that MAlign "alterations" could have been introduced at any point.


P.S.

@ tlb: Thanks! Escusez-moi is a typo. The s and x border each other much too closely on my small phone's screen. I thought I'd corrected it on the draft. Guess I didn't. Thanks again.

penny wrote:4. If the Alignment says Honor is a product of a lost Alpha line, and Honor is so successful as a genie, then why wouldn’t the Alignment attempt to reproduce Honor’s line in batches?

cnrd22 wrote:The upcoming Treecat novel introduces a Harrington cousin who is a member in good standing of the "good" Alignment (not the Detweiler one). He is a bigshot xenobiologist professor at some prestigious university in the civilized Galaxy who goes to help Manticore with the treecat sentience issue (and secretly to assess their relevance to the good Alignment goals). His "handler" (from the real Alignment who has ulterior plans of course) muses that because said cousin is too ethical, he cannot know about those ulterior plans - so here I guess is why the Harrington line disappeared, because while it fit the "good" Alignment, it never could have fit the real one...

See here:

"Yet that was okay, Portnoy reflected. Thinking about things like that was one of his jobs, not Duncan’s. On the other hand, Duncan understood the need for the Alignment to consider every possible advantage in its mission, cast the widest possible net as it considered ways in which the genome might be improved. And he understood that required research and that sometimes clandestine research had to embrace clandestine means to achieve its ends. So in the end, he’d…accommodate the necessary “specialist,” and Portnoy was glad, because he’d known Duncan Harrington since boyhood. Duncan was too good a man—too good a friend—to be burdened with those sorts of decisions, so Abner Portnoy would make certain he wasn’t."

While this is a nice quote, it comes dangerously close to being a spoiler for the next book - which is greatly discouraged.

Not sure if it answers the question about the Harringtons living on Sphinx, unless you are suggesting that the visiting Harrington was an Alpha line and so there was some confusion that caused the residents to be thought Alpha also.

However; if the book answers that, do NOT tell us here. Wait to discuss it after the book is out in the threads marked "SPOILER".

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:4. If the Alignment says Honor is a product of a lost Alpha line, and Honor is so successful as a genie, then why wouldn’t the Alignment attempt to reproduce Honor’s line in batches?

cnrd22 wrote:The upcoming Treecat novel introduces a Harrington cousin who is a member in good standing of the "good" Alignment (not the Detweiler one). He is a bigshot xenobiologist professor at some prestigious university in the civilized Galaxy who goes to help Manticore with the treecat sentience issue (and secretly to assess their relevance to the good Alignment goals). His "handler" (from the real Alignment who has ulterior plans of course) muses that because said cousin is too ethical, he cannot know about those ulterior plans - so here I guess is why the Harrington line disappeared, because while it fit the "good" Alignment, it never could have fit the real one...

See here:

"Yet that was okay, Portnoy reflected. Thinking about things like that was one of his jobs, not Duncan’s. On the other hand, Duncan understood the need for the Alignment to consider every possible advantage in its mission, cast the widest possible net as it considered ways in which the genome might be improved. And he understood that required research and that sometimes clandestine research had to embrace clandestine means to achieve its ends. So in the end, he’d…accommodate the necessary “specialist,” and Portnoy was glad, because he’d known Duncan Harrington since boyhood. Duncan was too good a man—too good a friend—to be burdened with those sorts of decisions, so Abner Portnoy would make certain he wasn’t."

While this is a nice quote, it comes dangerously close to being a spoiler for the next book - which is greatly disparaged.

Not sure if it answers the question about the Harringtons living on Sphinx, unless you are suggesting that the visiting Harrington was an Alpha line and so there was some confusion that caused the residents to be thought Alpha also.

However; if the book answers that, do NOT tell us here. Wait to discuss it after the book is out in the threads marked "SPOILER".

Whereas tlb is correct, personally I do not mind. In the same vein as "one man's trash is another man's treasure" there is found "one man's spoiler is another man's snippet!"

Thanks crnd22. Anyway, holy crap on a crumb cake!

penny wrote:But question #5 on my list is asking in a polite manner whether there could be any... (careful careful) "black sheep" in the family that isn't talked about; because of the difference in skin tone mentioned in the books that someone already posted. I was thinking that MAlign "alterations" could have been introduced at any point.

It might be as simple as saying that skin tone is not locked in, so will vary to some extent depending on the non-Winton parent.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:But question #5 on my list is asking in a polite manner whether there could be any... (careful careful) "black sheep" in the family that isn't talked about; because of the difference in skin tone mentioned in the books that someone already posted. I was thinking that MAlign "alterations" could have been introduced at any point.

It might be as simple as saying that skin tone is not locked in, so will vary to some extent depending on the non-Winton parent.

That surely makes sense. And that is how it should be naturally, as black people's skin tone is so varied. But I always got the impression that it was more than that, because of the very same passage that you posted. But my spider senses have been wrong before.

They really did look remarkably alike, although Henke showed the outward signs of the original, modified Winton genotype far more strongly. Elizabeth's rich mahogany skin was considerably lighter than her cousin's, yet Honor rather suspected Elizabeth had even more of the less obvious advantages Roger Winton's parents had had designed into their progeny. The exact nature of those modifications, while not precisely classified, was unknown...

But without checking the timeline again, I always wondered if the MA could have had something to do with the Wintons at some point. After that gobsmacking revelation about Honor hit the fan.

The reason I wondered about it is because the MA desires to dominate humanity, was heavily involved in research on humans, and touted genetic uplift. I just can't rule out that they would not have acquired samples of every known genie in the galaxy that they could get. And barring any prejudiced notions that black blood would be inferior, I find it unlikely that the MA would not want a sample of every known race to at least study.

Surreptitiously acquiring a genetic sample of anyone should be painlessly easy with HV technology.

penny wrote:The reason I wondered about it is because the MA desires to dominate humanity, was heavily involved in research on humans, and touted genetic uplift. I just can't rule out that they would not have acquired samples of every known genie in the galaxy that they could get. And barring any prejudiced notions that black blood would be inferior, I find it unlikely that the MA would not want a sample of every known race to at least study.

Surreptitiously acquiring a genetic sample of anyone should be painlessly easy with HV technology.

I doubt it, because the MA was working behind the scenes through companies like Manpower Inc. My impression of the LRPB is that they are much more slapdash than that; much more "let's throw this in and see if it works", because they can always erase the result if it came out bad. Look at the Bardasano genome and Herlander's daughter; Isabel was almost what they wanted (just needing some correction) but others of her line were eliminated, failures the same as the daughter. They were convinced of their superiority and mostly refused anything not invented here (after they got past the stage of kidnapping people, like from Ndebele; although that may have been more Manpower).

Their main clandestine activities in other countries involved setting up the conditions for the big war between the League and Haven.