Insanity: Screening elements in the HV

Jonathan_S wrote:True - though I thought I recalled that there was no wormhole with both its termini in the League.

Theemile wrote:I think that comment is wrong, or at least a technicality

The maps I have do not show Mesa as "surrounded by League space", if anything it is in the Verge. Also the latest information on Mannerheim is that it is not in the League (and might not be in League space?).

Someone saying what they thought that they recalled cannot be wrong, even if their memory is faulty; so technically the recalled memory can be incorrect, but the thought of recalling is true (or incapable of being proved false).

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:SL markets can't afford not to buy Manticoran goods. Manticoran goods are both convenient and cheaper!

And yes “data can get from the majority of League systems to Sol faster than it can to Manticore” but that data is stale because it is dependent on the last fluctuating prices of the last market. Also, do realize that what is more important to those League Systems is how fast data makes it to them from the MBS by way of Beowulf to Sol.

I find it difficult to believe that the Core Worlds need ANY of the information that passes though Manticore's wormhole. I also find this difficult to believe; because if the Core Worlds of the League were dependent on Manticore for information and goods, then they would not think of the inhabitants of Manticore as neobards out in the boondocks.

So if you have supporting text from the author, please present exact quotes and indicate where you found them. Do you even keep source material or are you relying on statements you have made previously (like in The Hunting of the Snark)?

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:SL markets can't afford not to buy Manticoran goods. Manticoran goods are both convenient and cheaper!

And yes “data can get from the majority of League systems to Sol faster than it can to Manticore” but that data is stale because it is dependent on the last fluctuating prices of the last market. Also, do realize that what is more important to those League Systems is how fast data makes it to them from the MBS by way of Beowulf to Sol.

I find it difficult to believe that the Core Worlds need ANY of the information that passes though Manticore's wormhole. I also find this difficult to believe; because if the Core Worlds of the League were dependent on Manticore for information and goods, then they would not think of the inhabitants of Manticore as neobards out in the boondocks.

So if you have supporting text from the author, please present exact quotes and indicate where you found them. Do you even keep source material or are you relying on statements you have made previously (like in The Hunting of the Snark)?

What the hell??? The SL thought the MBS was a bunch of neobarbs even when they were holding their own against the much larger Haven. They thought they were neobarbs even while they were defeating the much larger Haven, and doing it without benefit of SL hardware. They still thought they were neobarbs while reading the incredulous reports of hardware whose capabilities greatly surpassed their own.

After getting their butt kicked by those neobarbs, they still think they are neobarbs.

You really do not think the SL needs any information coming out of the MBS? Really? ... Really? That's like saying that someone who has a significant portion of their portfolio tied up in stocks, bonds, etc., etc., don't need Wall Street. *

You just don't understand how business works. Once the markets of the galaxy got intertwined, the market with the better information in which to buy and sell rules. Period. It isn't rocket science. Intertwined markets are like a house of cards. The wrong information and you'll remove the wrong card and your house comes tumbling down.

Once again the author himself said the MBS cornered the market on trade! Wake up and read the morning stock reports while you drink your morning coffee.

Do you not realize what cornering the market means? What you seem to find hard to believe is that the MBS has cornered the market on trade. But the author stated that very thing in House of Steel. Yet you keep asking me for textev for the MBS cornering the market on trade???

*Actually, they would not need Wall Street if they were financially suicidal. And the SL did prove to be suicidal.

penny wrote:Once again the author himself said the MBS cornered the market on trade! Wake up and read the morning stock reports while you drink your morning coffee.

Fine, produce the quote and its location. Show me that he said more than Manticore has a near monopoly on trade through its wormhole junction.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Once again the author himself said the MBS cornered the market on trade! Wake up and read the morning stock reports while you drink your morning coffee.

Fine, produce the quote and its location. Show me that he said more than Manticore has a near monopoly on trade through its wormhole junction.

House F Steel.

Search for an explanation somewhere near this quote. A quote that you should give some real thought to. A quote I included in that other thread you seem to easily ignore.

House of Steel wrote:The MWJ forced Solarian transshipment companies to severely cut costs to compete.

Ask yourself how the MWJ manages to do that. The huge SL with all of its monstrous amount of trading going on and the MWJ causes the enormous SL to lower their costs to compete?????????

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:True - though I thought I recalled that there was no wormhole with both its termini in the League.

Theemile wrote:I think that comment is wrong, or at least a technicality

The maps I have do not show Mesa as "surrounded by League space", if anything it is in the Verge. Also the latest information on Mannerheim is that it is not in the League (and might not be in League space?).

Someone saying what they thought that they recalled cannot be wrong, even if their memory is faulty; so technically the recalled memory can be incorrect, but the thought of recalling is true (or incapable of being proved false).

I'm not saying Jonathan was wrong - I remember the quote as well. I believe that the passage was an early statement by DW that has been retconned or forgotten as the narrative evolved.
As for Mannerheim and Yildune, I was stating that they were a similar situation to Mesa - non-league, but technically islands in League CONTROLLED space. And, even if one end of a wormhole is in the Verge, if OFS controlled the system in 1920pd, technically it was in League controlled space. So the statement couild be technically correct (outside the league), but the termini is still inside of the League's sphere of influence, and closer to league systems than direct flight to their destination.

penny wrote:Search for an explanation somewhere near this quote. A quote that you should give some real thought to. A quote I included in that other thread you seem to easily ignore.

House of Steel wrote:The MWJ forced Solarian transshipment companies to severely cut costs to compete.

Here are the quotes I believe you mean, note that they were in The Honorverse Companion and not HoS itself:

The Manticore Wormhole Junction wrote:Substantial levels of Crown revenue are directly derived from Junction usage fees and service fees from infrastructure usage, but the Junction also underpins a banking and financial market, dependent on information flow through the Junction, which constitutes a very significant percentage of the total Manticore economy.

-- skip --

Even with the increase in usage fees due to the Star Empire's need to fund a war, the savings are still sufficiently compelling that traffic through the Junction has done nothing but increase. the expansion of the Junction's "reach" through its newly discovered termini, plus the opening of additional hyper bridges in several spots around the Solarian League's periphery, helps to account for much of the of the increased usage. At the same time, the sixty-percent discount for Manticoran-owned and -registered vessels has simultaneously forced Solarian shipping houses to cut prices to remain competitive and driven more and more of the galaxy's shipping under the Manticoran flag, increasing Manticore's share of the galactic merchant marine. This has fanned long-standing resentment on the part of many Solarians, who feel that the Star Kingdom of Manticore has long used the Junction's leverage to increase the size of its merchant fleet at the expense of other star nations, including the Solarian League.

-- skip --

Physical goods are not the only thing shipped through the wormhole. As already noted, the Junction is also a natural focal point for the galaxy's financial institutions. A number of banks and financial firms have major branches on stations around the Junction, on one or more of of the major inner-system habitats, or on the planet Manticore itself.

From A Rising Thunder:

Chapter 6 wrote: Wodoslawski said bluntly, "Better than two-thirds of our total interstellar commerce - the percentage is higher for freight, lower for passengers and information - travels in Manticore-registered bottoms at some point in the transport cycle, Innokentiy. Almost thirty percent of it travels in Manty ships all the way from origin to to final destination; another twenty-seven percent travels in Manty bottoms for between thirty and fifty percent of the total voyage. Another ten or fifteen percent of it travels in Manty bottoms for up to a quarter of the total transit." Her expression was that of someone smelling something which had been dead for several days. "As you can see, simply pulling their own shipping out of the loop will reduce our available interstellar lift by better than half."

So by the Mandarin's numbers, somewhat more than half of the ships involved in trade belong to firms in Manticore. While this is a lot, it does not corner the market nor constitute a monopoly. Moreover it says nothing about the amount of Manticoran goods that you claim are being sold in the Core Worlds.

It does point to a financial market, but provides no indication of the sizes of financial markets within the Core Worlds.

PS: These are from hardback books, so I had to type the data in. I tried to avoid introducing errors, but cannot guarantee to be perfect.

Edit: Thinking about it, I realize that in the closing remarks I should have said "more than half of the capacity involved in trade, rather than "more than half of the ships involved in trade"; because the ships from Manticore could simply be bigger, but fewer. Also I should have said "financial services", rather than "a financial market".

.

Theemile wrote:I'm not saying Jonathan was wrong - I remember the quote as well. I believe that the passage was an early statement by DW that has been retconned or forgotten as the narrative evolved.
As for Mannerheim and Yildune, I was stating that they were a similar situation to Mesa - non-league, but technically islands in League CONTROLLED space. And, even if one end of a wormhole is in the Verge, if OFS controlled the system in 1920pd, technically it was in League controlled space. So the statement couild be technically correct (outside the league), but the termini is still inside of the League's sphere of influence, and closer to league systems than direct flight to their destination.

Okay; if you want to talk about League controlled space (prior to Honor's visit to Sol), rather than League space - then I accept.

Trade and markets depend on a lot of things, we tend to hear about things that go very right or very wrong.

How does trade operate in the section of our galaxy with the SL and all the non-SL entries or just independent systems? Sure, in the broader sense (keeping out of in-system sales ) people are doing a couple of broad groups of things. 1) either advertising goods or sending out sales people. 2) people who are looking for specific products (by brand/manufacture or by the uses the things will be put (say, astroid mining equipment or the Hornorverse equivalent of a CNC machine that can of 40 operations per machine. 3) People need to find a seller and somebody needs to get the merchandise to the. Same with almost any food produce or bulk material that isn't available where you need it.

Going with the 17th, 18, 19 and 20th century models of both domestic in large countries or transoceanic trade you either have a broker (or factor or trade agent) where you are or you will use one with a good reputation where goods can be sold---note, where sold, not just with who or where it's manufactured/processed or grown. Other that the things we have been show such as out in the minimally developed systems of Talbot or places "sort of around" Silesia, or out in the Verge what we hear about is shipping operations with regular routes. NOT the "Tramp Freighter" that is possibly hauling an ordered shipment somewhere and is often buying or carrying products purchased on speculation for resale to sometimes new (certainly to them) markets.
Regularly scheduled routes (by the same company no just those by a single ship) give you some major advantages. First among them is the ability to have cargo brokers accept consignments of loads going all sorts of places. It doesn't just have to be somewhere further along the loop route of the shipping line. That allows them to take a cargo from point A to point D and schedule it further on from D off in another rout that may take it to the MWJ via the Beowulf terminus, transferred there (after hanging around in a bonded warehouse for a bit) to go on a differnt sip to a system in Silesia. That hole 17th, 18th 19th century process of passing along cargo to its final destination via other transporter.

Freight agents and brokers live and die on information and performance. Ships always want to fill as much of their holds as possible. The Agents/brokers are able to receive orders and information from the ships or freight companies so they will know the ship X will be dropping off K amount of cargo at their system and need a new cargo up to at least that amount to carry forward round the route.

And that is why the MMM is doing so well. They will cooperate with other companies (be it a 20 ship fleet or a single ship with an Owner-on-Board. They tend (it seems to me) to be involved in regular routs and it isn't just one ship on that route making the stops once a year. Oh, the timing may not be as tight as air-freight is on Earth today- it's even worse that 19th century from Europe to places in the Pacific or Indian Oceans - but your customers KNOW it takes a long time and if your placing an order from Hardscable system that just entered the SEM though the annexation of half of Silesia and somebody wants is 30 seabed mining crawlers manufacture in the Judean Confederacy...will they can find somebody who can get them (perhaps from a dealer on a SL system and then set up the shipping though as many transfers or routs as they can. And handle the payment of purchase and shipping costs.

The Transtellars we have seen that are primarily shipping companies of have one or more shipping operation in their conglomerate don't seem to be operating quite that way. More along the lines of enforcing the sole use of there ships and people to handle systems and try to monopolize as much of the business components as possible.

Manticore offers a location and it's MMM builds up networks of freight brokers and agents with knowledge of what's available in the way of things that are available (or could be) for sale and can make commitments and pricing for cargo to be set out .....and they can also work on clearing customs and documentation.
Service at good prices and easing the movement of trade. That's the ticket:)

tlb wrote:Here are the quotes I believe you mean, note that they were in The Honorverse Companion and not HoS itself:

The Manticore Wormhole Junction wrote:Substantial levels of Crown revenue are directly derived from Junction usage fees and service fees from infrastructure usage, but the Junction also underpins a banking and financial market, dependent on information flow through the Junction, which constitutes a very significant percentage of the total Manticore economy.

-- skip --

Even with the increase in usage fees due to the Star Empire's need to fund a war, the savings are still sufficiently compelling that traffic through the Junction has done nothing but increase. the expansion of the Junction's "reach" through its newly discovered termini, plus the opening of additional hyper bridges in several spots around the Solarian League's periphery, helps to account for much of the of the increased usage. At the same time, the sixty-percent discount for Manticoran-owned and -registered vessels has simultaneously forced Solarian shipping houses to cut prices to remain competitive and driven more and more of the galaxy's shipping under the Manticoran flag, increasing Manticore's share of the galactic merchant marine. This has fanned long-standing resentment on the part of many Solarians, who feel that the Star Kingdom of Manticore has long used the Junction's leverage to increase the size of its merchant fleet at the expense of other star nations, including the Solarian League.

-- skip --

Physical goods are not the only thing shipped through the wormhole. As already noted, the Junction is also a natural focal point for the galaxy's financial institutions. A number of banks and financial firms have major branches on stations around the Junction, on one or more of of the major inner-system habitats, or on the planet Manticore itself.

From A Rising Thunder:

Chapter 6 wrote: Wodoslawski said bluntly, "Better than two-thirds of our total interstellar commerce - the percentage is higher for freight, lower for passengers and information - travels in Manticore-registered bottoms at some point in the transport cycle, Innokentiy. Almost thirty percent of it travels in Manty ships all the way from origin to to final destination; another twenty-seven percent travels in Manty bottoms for between thirty and fifty percent of the total voyage. Another ten or fifteen percent of it travels in Manty bottoms for up to a quarter of the total transit." Her expression was that of someone smelling something which had been dead for several days. "As you can see, simply pulling their own shipping out of the loop will reduce our available interstellar lift by better than half."

So by the Mandarin's numbers, somewhat more than half of the ships involved in trade belong to firms in Manticore. While this is a lot, it does not corner the market nor constitute a monopoly. Moreover it says nothing about the amount of Manticoran goods that you claim are being sold in the Core Worlds.

It does point to a financial market, but provides no indication of the sizes of financial markets within the Core Worlds.

PS: These are from hardback books, so I had to type the data in. I tried to avoid introducing errors, but cannot guarantee to be perfect.

Edit: Thinking about it, I realize that in the closing remarks I should have said "more than half of the capacity involved in trade, rather than "more than half of the ships involved in trade"; because the ships from Manticore could simply be bigger, but fewer. Also I should have said "financial services", rather than "a financial market".

.

House of Steel does include this bit

House of Steel: wrote:. Within a few years [of the discovery of the Trevor's Star and Hennessy termini] Manticore went from relying on Solarian hulls to bring it the most basic of necessities to building its own ships and establishing a dominant position in the galaxy’s carrying trade, transporting finished goods and passengers from the Core Worlds to the Verge—especially to the rapidly growing Haven Sector—and raw materials
back to the core worlds. The Junction fees, while small per ship, quickly accumulated. Because they were virtually pure profit, the Star Kingdom’s economy rapidly improved.

context in brackets added.

But that's talking about a situation nearly 300 years ago; and is purely addressing the carrying trade -- so freight shipping. It doesn't say anything about them becoming dominant in financial markets. And even a dominant position isn't the same as a monopoly position; if there's enough players in the market you can become dominant, such as being the largest single player, while still holding a minority of the overall market.

Jonathan_S wrote:House of Steel does include this bit

House of Steel: wrote:. Within a few years [of the discovery of the Trevor's Star and Hennessy termini] Manticore went from relying on Solarian hulls to bring it the most basic of necessities to building its own ships and establishing a dominant position in the galaxy’s carrying trade, transporting finished goods and passengers from the Core Worlds to the Verge—especially to the rapidly growing Haven Sector—and raw materials
back to the core worlds. The Junction fees, while small per ship, quickly accumulated. Because they were virtually pure profit, the Star Kingdom’s economy rapidly improved.

context in brackets added.

But that's talking about a situation nearly 300 years ago; and is purely addressing the carrying trade -- so freight shipping. It doesn't say anything about them becoming dominant in financial markets. And even a dominant position isn't the same as a monopoly position; if there's enough players in the market you can become dominant, such as being the largest single player, while still holding a minority of the overall market.

And it says "transporting finished goods and passengers from the Core Worlds to the Verge." It says nothing about transporting the same within the Core Worlds. However, it does say "dominant position in the galaxy’s carrying trade," from which we must conclude that the carrying trade includes a significant portion of trade with the Verge. In turn, that must imply that the intra-Core trade isn't that significant. That makes some sense, as those Core worlds developed when interstellar trade wasn't practical, so they probably developed for complete self-sufficiency.

"Dominant position" does not mean majority. It probably does mean plurality.

And the trade may be measured in volume or hulls, not in value. The intra-Core trade may have higher added value and higher margins for the finished goods, while the trade with the Verge included less valuable but bulkier goods. In our world, it could be similar to the difference between a single $20k to $100k finished CPU/GPU versus a containerful of plastic toys.