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Insanity: Screening elements in the HV

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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by penny   » Tue Dec 31, 2024 6:20 am

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tlb wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm. Sigma Draconis is "little more than forty light-years from Sol"; I thought there were closer inhabited systems than that.

But also, that doesn't make the rest of the League to Manticore faster than the rest of the League to Sol. (If nothing else over a quarter of the League would have to travel past Sol to reach Beowulf) Even if it takes longer for other massively wealthy Core worlds information to reach Sol that it takes Sol's information to reach Manticore it still makes sense for the financial markets to be at Sol as long as most of the other massively wealthy Core worlds information can reach Sol before that same information can reach Manticore.

Draw a direct line from Sol to Beowulf and bisect it with a plane perpendicular to that line. Any system on the Beowulf side of the plane can reach Beowulf faster and any system on the Sol side can reach Sol faster. So ignoring wormhole traffic and assuming the Core Worlds are evenly spread around Sol, that would make the fraction closer to one half.


I do not understand why this discussion is so difficult to accurately grasp. Perhaps I am missing something. So let me check it out. What is the travel time from Beowulf to Sol with and without the junction?
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Theemile   » Tue Dec 31, 2024 9:07 am

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penny wrote:
I do not understand why this discussion is so difficult to accurately grasp. Perhaps I am missing something. So let me check it out. What is the travel time from Beowulf to Sol with and without the junction?


Approx. 1 week.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Dec 31, 2024 9:23 am

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penny wrote:I do not understand why this discussion is so difficult to accurately grasp. Perhaps I am missing something. So let me check it out. What is the travel time from Beowulf to Sol with and without the junction?
It'd be exactly the same. And Theemile's estimate of about a week is probably right (see below)

The junction doesn't alter the transit time between Beowulf and Sol a bit because Beowulf is the closest point to Sol you can access via the junction. If we use the Panama canal as a wormhole analog this is like asking how travel times differ between Colón, Panama and Galveston, Texas with and without the canal -- it doesn't because Colón is the Atlantic/Caribbean terminus and so is already as close as the canal could take you to Galveston.


So from Beowulf (to Sol) going through the junction would be pointless because you'd have to u-turn at Manticore and come right back through the the Beowulf terminus before proceeding to Sol.





And while we don't know the exact transit time, nor whether any grav waves or rogue waves affect help or hinder the route from Beowulf to Sol, it we assume no waves of either type most folks courier boats could do the straight line shot through the Theta bands in about (40 LY / 3000c) 4.86 days + an extra 10-12 hours of so of accelerating up to speed. So ballpark it roughly five and a half days.
A helpful grav wave could compress that 10-12 hours of accelerating into 1-2 hours; but wouldn't reduce the rest of the trip. A rouge wave you had to dive under to detour around would add some large but unknown extra time to that.

But the key point is that the junction doesn't affect that time because it can't reduce the time between Beowulf and Earth
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Dec 31, 2024 9:36 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:So from Beowulf (to Sol) going through the junction would be pointless because you'd have to u-turn at Manticore and come right back through the the Beowulf terminus before proceeding to Sol.


Maybe the Junction has a fidelity program and the courier is trying to do a "mileage run" before the end of the year to keep their status.
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Dec 31, 2024 9:44 am

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tlb wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm. Sigma Draconis is "little more than forty light-years from Sol"; I thought there were closer inhabited systems than that.

But also, that doesn't make the rest of the League to Manticore faster than the rest of the League to Sol. (If nothing else over a quarter of the League would have to travel past Sol to reach Beowulf) Even if it takes longer for other massively wealthy Core worlds information to reach Sol that it takes Sol's information to reach Manticore it still makes sense for the financial markets to be at Sol as long as most of the other massively wealthy Core worlds information can reach Sol before that same information can reach Manticore.

Draw a direct line from Sol to Beowulf and bisect it with a plane perpendicular to that line. Any system on the Beowulf side of the plane can reach Beowulf faster and any system on the Sol side can reach Sol faster. So ignoring wormhole traffic and assuming the Core Worlds are evenly spread around Sol, that would make the fraction closer to one half.
It actually appears to be 39.3% of the Old League space is closer to Beowulf than Sol (Though I hadn't been trying to work out the exact numbers for my previous post)



The Old League appears to be a sphere roughly 140 LY radius from Sol, while that half-way point between Beowulf and Sol is about 20 LY from Sol. The volume of the Old League is therefore about 11,568,089 cubic LY, while the volume of the spherical cap starting from 20 LY from Sol is about 4,555,634 cubic LY. So a tad of 39% the volume of the Old League is in that spherical cap that's closer to Beowulf than Sol.

(Of this is based on pure geometry and taking distances from maps that may not be quite to scale. But we don't don't what hyper looks like between those point so actual transit times won't be a perfect 1:1 map from linear normal space distances)



But being closer to Beowulf means that while their financial information could reach Manticore before it reached Sol that doesn't help with market trading info from the other ~60% of the League whose information could reach Sol before it could reach Manticore
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Dec 31, 2024 9:45 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:So from Beowulf (to Sol) going through the junction would be pointless because you'd have to u-turn at Manticore and come right back through the the Beowulf terminus before proceeding to Sol.


Maybe the Junction has a fidelity program and the courier is trying to do a "mileage run" before the end of the year to keep their status.

:D
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Theemile   » Tue Dec 31, 2024 10:14 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:

But being closer to Beowulf means that while their financial information could reach Manticore before it reached Sol that doesn't help with market trading info from the other ~60% of the League whose information could reach Sol before it could reach Manticore


But - you are using our knowledge of the wormhole network to make that calculation - we know of fewer than 20 of the wormholes, and there are supposedly ~150 known termini. So those "Un-specified" wormholes will change the distance calculus.

Between the unknown 3dness of the 2d maps, hyperspace topography, and wormholes and planets, there are alot of unknowns.
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by tlb   » Tue Dec 31, 2024 11:17 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm. Sigma Draconis is "little more than forty light-years from Sol"; I thought there were closer inhabited systems than that.

But also, that doesn't make the rest of the League to Manticore faster than the rest of the League to Sol. (If nothing else over a quarter of the League would have to travel past Sol to reach Beowulf) Even if it takes longer for other massively wealthy Core worlds information to reach Sol that it takes Sol's information to reach Manticore it still makes sense for the financial markets to be at Sol as long as most of the other massively wealthy Core worlds information can reach Sol before that same information can reach Manticore.
tlb wrote:Draw a direct line from Sol to Beowulf and bisect it with a plane perpendicular to that line. Any system on the Beowulf side of the plane can reach Beowulf faster and any system on the Sol side can reach Sol faster. So ignoring wormhole traffic and assuming the Core Worlds are evenly spread around Sol, that would make the fraction closer to one half.
Jonathan_S wrote:It actually appears to be 39.3% of the Old League space is closer to Beowulf than Sol (Though I hadn't been trying to work out the exact numbers for my previous post)

The Old League appears to be a sphere roughly 140 LY radius from Sol, while that half-way point between Beowulf and Sol is about 20 LY from Sol. The volume of the Old League is therefore about 11,568,089 cubic LY, while the volume of the spherical cap starting from 20 LY from Sol is about 4,555,634 cubic LY. So a tad of 39% the volume of the Old League is in that spherical cap that's closer to Beowulf than Sol.

(Of this is based on pure geometry and taking distances from maps that may not be quite to scale. But we don't don't what hyper looks like between those point so actual transit times won't be a perfect 1:1 map from linear normal space distances)

But being closer to Beowulf means that while their financial information could reach Manticore before it reached Sol that doesn't help with market trading info from the other ~60% of the League whose information could reach Sol before it could reach Manticore

I expect you are right. Everything else being equal, the percentage of systems that are closer to Sol depends on the relation of the distance between Beowulf and Sol to the minimum radius of the sphere that encloses the Core worlds (where I was thinking the ratio was much smaller than it is).

However the point I was addressing was the statement that "If nothing else over a quarter of the League would have to travel past Sol to reach Beowulf"; so by your own figures about 39% of the systems would have to pass Beowulf to get to Sol (the reverse of what you said). I was only saying that perhaps half of the Core worlds were closer to Sol.
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Dec 31, 2024 5:26 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:

But being closer to Beowulf means that while their financial information could reach Manticore before it reached Sol that doesn't help with market trading info from the other ~60% of the League whose information could reach Sol before it could reach Manticore


But - you are using our knowledge of the wormhole network to make that calculation - we know of fewer than 20 of the wormholes, and there are supposedly ~150 known termini. So those "Un-specified" wormholes will change the distance calculus.

Between the unknown 3dness of the 2d maps, hyperspace topography, and wormholes and planets, there are alot of unknowns.

True - though I thought I recalled that there was no wormhole with both its termini in the League.

Even so, there might well be other (unknown to us) wormholes out of League space that let you hopscotch along the periphery (using other wormholes) and back in with lower transit time that the straight shot through hyper.
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Re: Insanity: Screening elements in the HV
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Dec 31, 2024 5:30 pm

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tlb wrote:I expect you are right. Everything else being equal, the percentage of systems that are closer to Sol depends on the relation of the distance between Beowulf and Sol to the minimum radius of the sphere that encloses the Core worlds (where I was thinking the ratio was much smaller than it is).

However the point I was addressing was the statement that "If nothing else over a quarter of the League would have to travel past Sol to reach Beowulf"; so by your own figures about 39% of the systems would have to pass Beowulf to get to Sol (the reverse of what you said). I was only saying that perhaps half of the Core worlds were closer to Sol.

Technically not that entire 39% would -- some would be between Beowulf and Sol; so despite being slightly closer to Beowulf than Sol they'd be heading away from Beowulf to get to Sol.

That's why my initial SWAG of 25% was basically just looking at the pie-shaped wedge behind Sol (from the perspective of Beowulf)

But yeah, more of the League that I would have guessed should be able get to Beowulf quicker that Sol. (Assuming no unknown, to us, wormholes or required hyperspace detours)
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