Insanity: Screening elements in the HV

penny wrote:
Coupons were probably one of the first futures markets.

I haven't heard "Coupons" used in reguard to securities markets in years. Of course I haven't hand to handle paper Bonds in a lot of years. Back in banking there was a point where I had to access collateral to "clip" the maturing interest cupons to submit them in advance to the issuing entity so the interest could be applied to -usually the customers deposit account if the loan was current. But these days much of that is digital...sigh.

In any case, Manticore had "cornered the market on trade" with two differnt but related things.
In the first case, they had the Junction and that let them charge for the use of it to get to the locations of the other ends of those various termini rather than ships spending the the time and expense to get to locations via only hyperspace.
The second follows on the 1st.
Ships which are flagged for Manticore Merchant Marine have discounted pricing for any junction transits. I don't recall a price table being publshed in the books but if it is anything like Canal transits - specifically Panama Canal- there are components to what the cost is for a transit. Ship tonnage (and for the PC dimensional components) plus number of persons (passengers) and such. Time of day matters for PC -crusie ships passengers want to transit in daylight so the ships pay premiums for both daylight passage and advanced reservations for that. For the Junction - Ship gross tonnage and which terminus to the Junction and probably usually which terminus from the Junction [Don't know if Charges more for the longer distance savings] Then there would be tonnage of the cargo and probably price per crew person and fee for passengers. So Manticore is making revenue for ships using the Junction.
Then there is the benefit for MMM ships who are operating as merchant carriers within the League and their ships or other MMM ships which can load cargos and take them either through the Junction and out another terminus OR deliver them to a warehouse/transfer station at the Junction for a MMM ship going somewhere else beyond the terminus. They can offer LOWER SHIPPING FEES that non-MMM ships. It's not quite so simple but the MMM- prior to LACOON I & II- had perhaps 50% of the shipping capacity volume within the League. Even if it was 30% that is a massive amount based on the numbers of member systems of the League and its protectorates etc. Also why LACOON I and II was so effective in grabbling the attention of the League since it A) put a strangle hold on trade within the League and B) II effectively cut off all the trade beyond the League which had depended (for time and expense reasons) on the Junction. MMM ships and crews are presented as normally operating an a legal and professional way with meeting schedules offering good (and often better than completions's) prices and we get a few examples of Solly officials and SLN people looking for kickback/bribes and getting their hands burned for illegal activity if they pull that crap on Manticore registered shipping. The attorneys were beating the crap out of them in Solly courts.
Post War-with the SL- the problems LACOON I & II were going to cause for MMM haven't been talked about in the series. But if it gets mentioned it is probably going to keep slapping the SL 2.0 in the face as it would appear to be a de-facto State of War instigated and prosecuted by the SL on Manticore and the Star Empire's MMM shouldn't have to pay actual out-of-pocket for default clauses in shipping contracts.

The short version is that MMM had been operating at a real competitive advantage partially because of Junction fee advantages and (we are being shown) really good and professional shipping operations in transport operates. Also remember (the vultures don't want to admit) that MMM is using a lot of SL based freight broker and warehousing operations which are (were) very pleased at being able to offer their customers better rates and often shipping schedules to final destination than if they used non-MMM companies.

So suck it up or do better.

Brigade XO wrote:Also why LACOON I and II was so effective in grabbling the attention of the League since it A) put a strangle hold on trade within the League and B) II effectively cut off all the trade beyond the League which had depended (for time and expense reasons) on the Junction.

Not just from beyond the League.
There are parts of the League itself where the fastest way between them is through Manticore.

The most obvious from the maps is anything over in the Shell near Joshua since popping through the Erewhon Junction, the Phoenix pseudo-junction, and then the Manticore Junction cut over half the hyperspace distance compared to a direct routing. But there are other hyperspace bridges that don't appear on the map that make other League to League shipping quickest if bounced through Manticore. (And of course the new Lynx wormhole is further out, but pretty much directly on the opposite side of the League from Joshua, and so opens up shortcut (or makes newly profitably) routes between the Eastern and Western sides of League space.

But LACOON II not only cut off shipments to/from the League from the linchpin of that wormhole network; but also seized some of the useful point-to-point wormhole bridges that would have benefitted League traffic that stayed clear of the MWJ.


Still, for all the benefit, I suspect that much of the intra-League shipping isn't long distance going across the entire breadth of the League, but instead is short haul shipping between nearby clusters of worlds; where none of the wormholes benefitted it anyway.

[quote="Jonathan_S"
Still, for all the benefit, I suspect that much of the intra-League shipping isn't long distance going across the entire breadth of the League, but instead is short haul shipping between nearby clusters of worlds; where none of the wormholes benefitted it anyway.[/quote].

Going back to the "Manticore Ascendent" prequel series, some Manticore citizens were working at both setting up home based merchant shipping and manufacture for export along with licensing for producing equipment and products there under license instead of having to import them. This is all pre-wormhole and pre-junction and Republic of Haven was the the major power center close by. Your better off if you can make (and certainly make improvements to and develop new equipment you need in your own system then selling what you can for export to support that industry and build more capital. Your own Star Nation's merchant shipping both lets you keep more of what is spent on shipping in-house as far as the profit or just supporting your local industry.

You have to consider how interstellar trade might have developed and what it looks like when you get to the point where Honor Harrington is given command of Fearless with the description of the trade routes with Basilisk as the example and what Manticore had been doing in relation to providing commerce protection in Silesia. That is where -along with the other areas in the Haven Quadrant other than inside Haven's direct posessions- Honor and so many other RMN officers and crew built their skills. Merchant shipping has to go where there are markets and sources. Manticore had done that historically but between the early need to defend itself against outside forces and then to protect it's own merchant shipping the RMN followed in the commerce protection roll.
That brings it back around to 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th century Age of Sail where your are dealing with various levels of private and government business exploration and trade. Britian's Royal Navy, the Dutch East India Company, Spanish and Portuguese trade and navies and the whole history of colonial development and competition that was going on.
Manticore has the Junction but that originally was a single shortcut allowing access to the SL and a major change to everything in trade and development out in the Haven Quadrant. They became the waypoint on the best (shortest time) route out in their direction from the League. I'm suggesting that initially it was more the need and desire for Manticore to access the tech and markets of the League than the interests of existing SL based shipping to leave existing profitable routes. Then there is what probably quickly developed as the discounted transit pricing for MMM flagged shipping lowering their costs, at least for the use of the Manticore-Sigma Darconis wormhole. It's normal for people to complain and grouse about special treatment that gives anybody else some advantage.

Separate thought---we know that there is an agreement -Treaty by this time- between Beowulf and Manticore such that Manticore operates the Beowulf end of the worm hole but I don't recall any specific mention of lower fees for Beowulf flagged ships. We know that Beowulf has it's own SDF and they have daughter colonies and they have a Trade Group of with other systems (that Trade group arrangement seems to be fraying a bit by the current time). So, does Beowulf have merchant shipping that is Beowulf flagged but also has SL "flagging" and how is that operating? Is/has the League been operating under a variation of the British Commonwealth structures - say early to mid 19th century- where the separate systems are all part of the League but are able to maintain separate identity and military forces of their own along with merchant shipping? I have to think that Beowulf has a preferred, treaty based, transit rate for its shipping through the Junction that is speciffially NOT tied to SL membership. Nobody has mentioned anybody from elsewhere in the League Membership setting up a Beowulf corporation to take advantage of perfered transit fees. I know, too many detailed questions about underpinnings of the workings of trade there....big smile.

Brigade XO wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Still, for all the benefit, I suspect that much of the intra-League shipping isn't long distance going across the entire breadth of the League, but instead is short haul shipping between nearby clusters of worlds; where none of the wormholes benefitted it anyway.

.

Going back to the "Manticore Ascendent" prequel series, some Manticore citizens were working at both setting up home based merchant shipping and manufacture for export along with licensing for producing equipment and products there under license instead of having to import them. This is all pre-wormhole and pre-junction and Republic of Haven was the the major power center close by. Your better off if you can make (and certainly make improvements to and develop new equipment you need in your own system then selling what you can for export to support that industry and build more capital. Your own Star Nation's merchant shipping both lets you keep more of what is spent on shipping in-house as far as the profit or just supporting your local industry.

You have to consider how interstellar trade might have developed and what it looks like when you get to the point where Honor Harrington is given command of Fearless with the description of the trade routes with Basilisk as the example and what Manticore had been doing in relation to providing commerce protection in Silesia. That is where -along with the other areas in the Haven Quadrant other than inside Haven's direct posessions- Honor and so many other RMN officers and crew built their skills. Merchant shipping has to go where there are markets and sources. Manticore had done that historically but between the early need to defend itself against outside forces and then to protect it's own merchant shipping the RMN followed in the commerce protection roll.
That brings it back around to 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th century Age of Sail where your are dealing with various levels of private and government business exploration and trade. Britian's Royal Navy, the Dutch East India Company, Spanish and Portuguese trade and navies and the whole history of colonial development and competition that was going on.
Manticore has the Junction but that originally was a single shortcut allowing access to the SL and a major change to everything in trade and development out in the Haven Quadrant. They became the waypoint on the best (shortest time) route out in their direction from the League. I'm suggesting that initially it was more the need and desire for Manticore to access the tech and markets of the League than the interests of existing SL based shipping to leave existing profitable routes. Then there is what probably quickly developed as the discounted transit pricing for MMM flagged shipping lowering their costs, at least for the use of the Manticore-Sigma Darconis wormhole. It's normal for people to complain and grouse about special treatment that gives anybody else some advantage.

Separate thought---we know that there is an agreement -Treaty by this time- between Beowulf and Manticore such that Manticore operates the Beowulf end of the worm hole but I don't recall any specific mention of lower fees for Beowulf flagged ships. We know that Beowulf has it's own SDF and they have daughter colonies and they have a Trade Group of with other systems (that Trade group arrangement seems to be fraying a bit by the current time). So, does Beowulf have merchant shipping that is Beowulf flagged but also has SL "flagging" and how is that operating? Is/has the League been operating under a variation of the British Commonwealth structures - say early to mid 19th century- where the separate systems are all part of the League but are able to maintain separate identity and military forces of their own along with merchant shipping? I have to think that Beowulf has a preferred, treaty based, transit rate for its shipping through the Junction that is speciffially NOT tied to SL membership. Nobody has mentioned anybody from elsewhere in the League Membership setting up a Beowulf corporation to take advantage of perfered transit fees. I know, too many detailed questions about underpinnings of the workings of trade there....big smile.

Brigade, kudos for your thoughts. I share them. I brought forth Did the MBS corner the market on trade? as reference. On the opening post of that thread it tells how House of Steel chronicles how Beowulf did enjoy lower transit fees. The treaty was very lucrative. As a matter of fact, the treaty was so lucrative that Manticore was thinking about revisiting it. Apparently Beowulf is making a killing.

Also, since Beowulf is a SL founder and "the original Junction treaty with Beowulf is rather lucrative (so lucrative the SK's government contemplated revisiting the original treaty with Beowulf)," I don't see why the SL didn't capitalize on those savings by proxy.

So you can see that in that thread I asked the same question. Why did the SL not try to capitalize on Beowulf's transit savings by proxy? Unless, of course, Manticore stipulated that the savings would not extend to the SL. The SK's coupon may plainly state "limit three items (systems) per customer." For Beowulf that may have been spelled out to be (Me, Myself and I).


The lucrative treaty is pretty much a direct quote from House of Steel.


Hilarious thought: The SK's treaty with Beowulf would have been akin to having a membership with Sam's Club. Let's call it SK's Club.

And since it was so lucrative -- just how lucrative we can only speculate -- then it may have entitled Bewowulf to charge SL flagged ships the full fees. And then the SK could have turned around and charged the SL ships again when returning through. Double dipping in the SL's pockets.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:The SL may not need to trade in the MBS as far as tangible trade. But as far as intangible trade like stocks, certain commodities, etc., it needs the MBS more than anyone else ever will; with the exception of Manticore itself. That's a personal observation, mind you.

An entity as large as the SL needs to manage its spending. It needs to seek out the best deals and manage its profit and lost margins as best it can. The SL literally cannot afford to forego trading in the MBS if it wants to adequately maintain and control its costs. And it certainly cannot remain in business going up against other ventures with the power of the fresh data coming out of the MBS. Insurance companies in the SL would fold going up against foreign businesses that operate out of the MBS. Since the SL hates Manticore for cornering the market on trade, why doesn't the SL simply boycott or ignore it? Because it can't. Galactic markets count on the data that fuels it. Remember, the MBS does not simply corner the market on trade. It also corners the market on data. The MWJ corners the market on interior lines of communication. They've got data coming in from all over the galaxy.

What text evidence do you have for your statements? Here is text showing the trade within the Core worlds was enormous and lucrative (contrary to speculation by some in the forum) and there is no reason to assume that the MBS had any effect on it. They do not need data from the MBS.

The Solarian League was the largest, most powerful, wealthiest political entity in human history. On a per capita basis, the Star Kingdom's economy was actually somewhat stronger, but in absolute terms Manticore's entire gross domestic product would disappear with scarcely a ripple into the League's economy.

From Honorverse fanwiki:

The inner systems, or Core worlds, were the first hundred or so colonies settled from Earth and many of them had populations larger than ten billion.

Core systems and core worlds were among the most wealthy and influential of humanity's population centers. The Core trade was extremely lucrative. (SI4,CS2)

Here is the actual quote from Torch Of Freedom:

Chapter 38 wrote:For some considerable part of that pre-Station life, she and her husband had been very successful freight brokers. That was how they'd amassed their initial small fortune, which Michael Parmley had then parlayed into a much larger fortune playing the Centauri stock exchange—and then blown the whole thing trying to launch a freight company that could compete with the big boys in the lucrative Core trade.

From More Than Honor the combined population of the MBS worlds was about 3 billion, so a given Core world could have an economy that was 3 times greater than Manticore and still have a per capita basis that was only about 90% that of Manticore.

The textual evidence is the text I gave from House of Steel. Again, how can one corner the market on trade without cornering the maket on trade? The SK's enormous MMM may have even allowed the SL to branch out even more into its own territory. It is a fact that the SK's enormous Merchant Marine dwarfed the SL's. Yet the SL had so many colonies. So, how could that be? It seems logical that the SL did not have the Merchant Marine to adequately service its own systems. Which means the MMM may have had their hand in many a piece of the SL's pie. The SK was scratching the gorilla's back and the gorilla was -- perhaps reluctantly -- scratching theirs.

It is one thing to be able to service the SL's systems cheaper than they can. But to be able to service their systems when they cannot is a totally different thing. More frequent deliveries would have excited SL systems. The SK became the galaxy's Amazon. Amazon gets you your deliveries so fast it's shocking.

Also, any government would like to see its markets expanded. As a purely business model, the suggestion for Grayson to trade with Masada had merit. Lucrative systems and governments might not need certain items from another country. But they certainly might prefer them. Consider the much cheaper and more dependable cars imported from Japan, like Subaru. Subarus are the most dependable car on the planet. America does not need them, but a lot of people prefer them. I owned a Subaru. And you couldn't tear that car up if you wanted to. It outlasted three new vehicles. I sold it and its body is rusted out now, but still starting with one flick of the key. The friend I sold it to says he will keep it until it turns to dust. But I digress.

The SL's fortunes are tied up into the MBS because of expanded trade. Tangible and intangible markets. Banks and insurance companies become dependent upon the other. It is the laws of economics and the trickle down theory.

I do not see how the SL can compete with the interest rates offered by the SK's businesses if the SL does not operate and trade in the MBS itself. If you can't beat them, join them.


An aside: One of America's enemies said that the best way to beat America is from within. China. China has moved in and bought up farmland, farms, real estate, businesses, and they loan America enormous amounts of funds. China is also said to monopolize gold. And with the recent discovery of the largest vein of gold ever found on the planet, China will certainly influence the gold market.

Trade. So many components fall under that heading but we are talking about Manticore, the Junction and flow of goods (and data and people and services) through the Junction as opposed to actual sales to people/companies etc in the Manticore Binary System and the various systems they hold that were part of the SKM and now SEM

Junction fees are a major revenue source. Even if only a tiny percentage of the ship tonnage that uses the Junction actually is delivering (or picking up) goods to the MBS, the fees for the though traffic is going to be massive. Not getting into what component of those fees involved tonnage of good vs registered tonnage of the ships. Ships that stop for cargo transfers, picking up or dropping off passengers at the stations maintained around the Junction are going to pay various "parking" or docking fees then charges for cargo handling. There is also the income stream to the companies operating prepare, spare parts, consumables, waste handling and various types of warehousing services. There will be freight brokers out there as well (and yes, locations on the three planets and on stations serving the planets.
People (citizens and others as applicable under Manticorian Laws) pay taxes on sales and profits to SEM.

All the freight on those ships (and also passengers ) is going somewhere and there should be freight on the return trip though the Junction.

You have to differentiate with things in the SL model. From the books, the SL Treasury primarily gets it money from fees and tariffs on Starship traffic at League Systems. Whomever is actually employed, be it citizens of the local planet or the Bureaucracy of the Treasury Department with HQ on Earth, it's enforcing SL Customs, Health Regulations. Some of that money stays in the individual systems in the form of wages (and housing and food and insurance) etc but most flowes to the Treasury. It certainly sounded from the meetings and explications of what was going on with the Mandarins, that the SL wasn't (couldn't) tax individuals or actually systems to fund the Bureaucracy or even the Navy.

Manticore's Merchant Marine certainly has components of lots of owner/operators (Ship Captains and crew who are Owners-on-Board) and is also sounds like officers of ships being operated by larger multi-ship operations can trade for themselves if it doesn't interfere with the ship's client base or operation parameters. It's freight for the ship, it's sometimes personal "investments" for crew. But Manticore has been exporting goods for centuries as well as importing things it either can't produce or can't produce more cost effectively than buying it it the SL or other place.

It is also not clear -even with LACOON- that a SL Flagged vessel is actually registered with the SL or if it is more a very mixed collection of ships operating under the flagging of of various home systems who are Members of the SL. They are still going to have to abide by SL regulations for interstellar trade and ship handling.
If it's every SL Member System flags it's on shipping then Beloulf (as with it's SFD which is only under very specific criteria going to be operating as part o the SLN). Kind of like it would be if the Lagoon I notice was "all Manticorian Registered Vessels return to Manticorian Space and then Lagoon II was actually "All vessels registered to member systems of the SL -except for systems noted in Appendix V- are excluded from transiting any and all wormholes under Manticorian Sovereignty (and anything we hold by force of arms) Beowulf shipping continues as normal.

The League Bureaucracy comes in for a lot of problems if what various official parts of the League Government and Bureaucracy (including the Navy) interfere with the profitable flow of trade inside and moving in or outside lf the League. Like running an undeclared war on Manticore.

Hmm. Beowulf has a lucrative treaty with the MBS and enjoys very good rates on junction fees. Beowulf is making a killing. Do other allies also enjoy reduced price transits? After awhile it seems the only government that will be paying full price is the SL. Sooner or later, wouldn’t extending coupons to all of their allies begin to eat into the MBS’s bottom line quite a bit?

It reminds me of starting a business. Let's say a restaurant. And seeing all of your profit gobbled up by feeding your family and friends at half price.

When off duty, does Honor have to pay junction fees when leaving the system?

I seriously doubt that any other system will out negotiate Manticore like Beowulf did. But then Beowulf had a bargaining chip; leverage.

I would think that Beth gives Torch discounted transits to assist the new government. And all of the new systems the Star Empire is bringing in will get some sort of discount as well I imagine. Is the SL the only one paying full price on junction fees?

tlb wrote:What text evidence do you have for your statements? Here is text showing the trade within the Core worlds was enormous and lucrative (contrary to speculation by some in the forum) and there is no reason to assume that the MBS had any effect on it. They do not need data from the MBS.

The Solarian League was the largest, most powerful, wealthiest political entity in human history. On a per capita basis, the Star Kingdom's economy was actually somewhat stronger, but in absolute terms Manticore's entire gross domestic product would disappear with scarcely a ripple into the League's economy.

From Honorverse fanwiki:

The inner systems, or Core worlds, were the first hundred or so colonies settled from Earth and many of them had populations larger than ten billion.

Core systems and core worlds were among the most wealthy and influential of humanity's population centers. The Core trade was extremely lucrative. (SI4,CS2)

Here is the actual quote from Torch Of Freedom:

Chapter 38 wrote:For some considerable part of that pre-Station life, she and her husband had been very successful freight brokers. That was how they'd amassed their initial small fortune, which Michael Parmley had then parlayed into a much larger fortune playing the Centauri stock exchange—and then blown the whole thing trying to launch a freight company that could compete with the big boys in the lucrative Core trade.

From More Than Honor the combined population of the MBS worlds was about 3 billion, so a given Core world could have an economy that was 3 times greater than Manticore and still have a per capita basis that was only about 90% that of Manticore.

penny wrote:The textual evidence is the text I gave from House of Steel. Again, how can one corner the market on trade without cornering the maket on trade? The SK's enormous MMM may have even allowed the SL to branch out even more into its own territory. It is a fact that the SK's enormous Merchant Marine dwarfed the SL's.

Since I am away from home, I do not have access to House of Steel at the moment. The quotes I remember involve Manticore's merchant marine, by virtue of the discount through the wormhole junction, dominating the trade to the Verge and the periphery of the Solarian League. Whether it actually dominates trade between the Core worlds is a matter of conjecture (unless you have a specific quote). The quote from ToF is that the Core trade is lucrative and enormous and dominated by the "big boys" (which may or may not include Manticore).

But there is a tremendous market in the Core that would be ill-served by a financial market that was not the Core and using Solarian money.

tlb wrote:But there is a tremendous market in the Core that would be ill-served by a financial market that was not the Core and using Solarian money.

And as far as we can tell something like 2/3rds of the Old League would have lower lag communications with Sol than with Manticore -- so it'd make more sense for Core's financial markets to be hosted on Earth. (It's only those near or beyond Beowulf that could get messages from Manticore faster than from Sol)

penny wrote:Hmm. Beowulf has a lucrative treaty with the MBS and enjoys very good rates on junction fees. Beowulf is making a killing. Do other allies also enjoy reduced price transits? After awhile it seems the only government that will be paying full price is the SL. Sooner or later, wouldn’t extending coupons to all of their allies begin to eat into the MBS’s bottom line quite a bit?

Yes, other's do or have. Recall the Republic of Erwehon when it left the Manticore Alliance and started providing information to Haven......all sorts of economic sanctions were applied. Manticore didn't shut off their access to the Junction but it sounded like they paid at least the normal published general use rate for their shipping. There was also various tariffs applied to their good- at least for being brought into Manticore Star Nation territory for sale or import. They had been an Allied Nation with treaty obligations and withdrew from that Alliance. Ok, they had real difficulty with the High Ridge Government for a bunch of reasons, but passing along tech and other information to Haven was a very bad move.