Israel/Gaza - Here we go again...

The E wrote:Please define genocide.

While you do so, please also consider the terms of the Genocide Convention, an international treaty that Israel is party to.

It defines the following five acts that, when committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, constitute genocide:
1. Killing members of the group
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Which is basically exactly what Palestineans done last year. Well, maybe not the 5. Palestineans just massacred kids and babies, not bothering with "forcible transfer".

Your problem is, that you managed to put the whole logic upside down. All those points depend on intent to destroy to qualify as genocide. They do not define the intent to destroy; they rely on intent to destroy.

We knew that Palestineans have all intent to destroy the Israel. That's their whole rhetoric for decades. Do Israel have the same rhetoric toward Palestinean? No.

Ah, okay, I thought you had read the thread. Sorry, my mistake, I forget that that's not a thing people do anymore.

Short version: I have never once said that Hamas and its goals were justified or good. All I am saying, all I have ever said on this topic, is that the destruction inflicted on Gaza in response to the October attacks is disproportionate and genocidal - A statement that is founded upon Israeli policies towards its arab population that goes back to its founding (https://theconversation.com/israels-iro ... ahu-225936). Israel is a colonial state, engaged in classic colonial violence, and that violence is genocidal in nature and intent.

But don't let facts distract you from your feelings. After all, nuance is something that can't be allowed in politics, right?

The E wrote:
Short version: I have never once said that Hamas and its goals were justified or good. All I am saying, all I have ever said on this topic, is that the destruction inflicted on Gaza in response to the October attacks is disproportionate and genocidal - A statement that is founded upon Israeli policies towards its arab population that goes back to its founding (https://theconversation.com/israels-iro ... ahu-225936). Israel is a colonial state, engaged in classic colonial violence, and that violence is genocidal in nature and intent.

But don't let facts distract you from your feelings. After all, nuance is something that can't be allowed in politics, right?

Let me put your words even shorter: demagoguery. Israel jews - even before Israel creation - agreed with the existence on Palestinean Arab state. Palestinean Arabs from the very beginning refused to agree with the Israel existence.

And that little fact kinda make all your righterous demagoguery about "colonial state engaged in classic colonial violence" absolutely pointless. The "colonial state" that pretty much eager to let their "colony" free - but the "colony" have nothing of it, hell-bent on "colonial state" destruction? Is that "classical"? I think not; at least I can't recall any similar case in history.

Palestinean could end their "colonial state" and "genocide" virtually at ANY moment of their post-1948 history by just agreeing to recognize Israel and making a formal peace with it - which was suggested to them literally dozens of times. They refused each and every time. They, not Israel.

Dilandu wrote:Israel jews - even before Israel creation - agreed with the existence on Palestinean Arab state.

Are you sure about that? Are you absolutely, positively sure that this statement is true?

I mean, it obviously isn't - no country, no populace, is that unified in their opinion on something.
The more pertinent question is, is this statement true of the current israeli leadership. So, let's look at some statements.

In October 2023 after the attack, Benjamin Netanyahu stated in a press conference that Gaza is "the city of evil" and that "we will turn all the places where Hamas is organized and hiding into cities of ruins. I say to the residents of Gaza - get out of there now. We will act everywhere and with all our strength."
Which is pretty much precisely what they are doing now, isn't it - and, I'm sorry, but rhetoric like calling Gaza a city of evil, in this context, is highly problematic.

In January 2024, he stated in response to criticisms against the israeli actions in Gaza, that his goals are to destroy Hamas and returning all hostages, and that he will not settle for anything short of an absolute victory.

Ah, but that's just wartime rhetoric, I hear you type. Yes, it sure is. So let's look at some of the history behind this, shall we?
For a very long time, the israeli government has legitimized Hamas, treating it and only it as the representative voice of the palestinian people. In 2019, Netanyahu stated that:

Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.

In other words, Israel was propping up Hamas for a very long time because their extremism made them useful - this very directly undermines your idea that the palestinians have been unreasonably fixated on the idea of an independent state.

So, this is where I stop putting effort into these posts and require you to do so: Please prove these statements wrong. Do show us that these are not representative of israeli politics, or the politics of its leadership. Do present evidence.

And, above it all, do provide an answer to a very simple question: How many palestinians should be killed to destroy Hamas?