Insanity: Screening elements in the HV

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Again as in other threads, how can active evasion help except for potluck? How can one evade or "tip toe through the tulips" when the tulips cannot be seen? One might zig into a trap, then zag into a bigger trap. Like I said before, when has zig-zagging ever worked when in a "minefield", except for the mines?

The same way random zig-zagging worked against submarines in WWII?

Imperfectly but reasonably effectively.

You don't have to see the enemy or even know where they are for an evasive pattern to make it harder for them to hit you. You just have to be able to change vector often and significantly enough that they can't easily chase you and must instead estimate approximately where you'll be at some later point when their weapons can reach you.

Sure, every once in a while you get unlucky and randomly zig into a weapon and get hit; but most of the time your random course variations either take you out of the say of a lower accelerating weapon or prevent the slower enemy vessel from getting into effective range in the first place.

Random course variations will certainly make it harder for g-torps or spider ships to take out LACs than if the LACs simply locked themselves into a constant course and speed and so their future location could be predicted hours in advance.

Your points make a lot of sense. But the manifold differences that I can see are:

1. Theater of conflict: In WWII the Pacific hosted the lion's share of the conflict. And the Pacific is relatively neutral; it belongs to neither potential combatant. There is no home field advantage. Therefore no time or opportunity to lay traps, mines (~) or seed the area with weapons. Darius is different.
   
   
2. Weapons: There is a galaxy of difference between the weapons deployed at the time. We all know the limited capability of the subs themselves, much less the pitiful capability of the torpedos and the targeting system of some of those torpedos. Let's not even laugh at the unreliability of some navy’s torpedos.
   
   
3. Maneuverability: Subs in WWII had much less mobility when enjoying their best stealth; while deeply submerged with all systems shut down. So setting traps etc., wasn't exactly easy. So the tactics available at the time was, in comparison, almost negligible.
   
   
4. Enough acceleration for Fox and Geese tactic. At least in the board game of the same name you knew you were being herded. Zig-zagging is still accelerating within a certain parameter. A computer can work out the general heading. “They are zig-zagging mam, but the computer has predicted their general course heading.”
   
   
   
5. Home field advantage: Self explanatory.
   
   
   Enough warships in the area to form a strategy.
   
   
6. To seek out the enemy in the enemy's front yard, your path must bring you close to the enemy's front door and deeper and deeper into the enemy’s debt. The Lenny's will sooner or later collect that Det!

Strategy and tactics take on a completely different paradigm against an enemy that enjoys nearly total stealth.

I seriously doubt that it is going to be business as usual when attacking Darius. LACs and probes will not be left alone to peep at the inner system's hand and hole cards. This poker game is winner takes all.

penny wrote:I seriously doubt that it is going to be business as usual when attacking Darius. LACs and probes will not be left alone to peep at the inner system's hand and hole cards. This poker game is winner takes all.

Ignoring the problem of finding a planet that is only accessed through a wormhole; a scout ship that materializes a light week out can monitor emissions for hours before it has to worry about being detected by a gravitic array. An RD launched on arrival can get much closer before being detected. I personally thought that Galton was aware that they were scouted, but others disagree. Even if the detection apparatus is better at Darius, the simple time lag for even FTL signals gives the initial scout an advantage on data collection.

Why is it being assumed- or presented as- the big GA attack on Darius is going to happen with no intervening battles or other actions were the GA ends up gaining data on the Alignment's weapons and ships?

Galton was deliberately sacrificed as a destruction and misleading the GA on what they had found. Remember that Galton was specifically ordered NOT to use things like spider drive or any of the more modern stuff Gail knew about in her analysis and tactical planning for the defense of Galton. Sure, there were a lot of GA casualties at Galton...not the least reason because Galton did things like surrender and then apparently shooting practically every weapon left at the GA fleet....really classy move.

Do you think that it is just possible that in future engagements -and there will be some- the GA will keep the Alignment's tactical variations like that in mind? Also, since no "Invisible Spaceships" were noticed -because there were not weapons being encountered from places where there were no ships to launch them (I think your average GA tactical sensor departments would note and end up reporting on things like that) the GA is going to keep trying to find out what they are up against.

The RF's importance to the Alignment is not it's technical superiority vs the GA (they are so far at best on a level with the SLN), it's the distraction of what they are doing providing a haven or alternative to the SL's long record of corruption. They are also to infiltrate the various systems that join them with the philosophies and push ethical thinking in directions the Alignment wants it to go. Will the Alignment every -with witnesses, any witnesses- use something like an LD to support an RF force agains anybody? Not likely as that would blow the cover.

The Plan had been pushed to again get modified and exactly how the LDs are going to be use is going to have to be carefully orchestrated. It is possible to have a ship or formation of Spider Drive warships come in and devastate a system to sow terror and comfusion but every time you use a spider drive near someone who has any possibility of getting data on the ship's drive or weapons etc, you run the risk of something being found out. This is to like going into what was the planned corrupt SL which is being sucked into a war with Haven and being able to craft scenarios where you can blame one side or the other for wiping out a systems orbital presence or coming an EE strike. " Captain, what's left of the planetary government reports that there was no indication that any ships were in or near the system till weapons started appearing just before they slammed into everything man-made in the system. What they have for data is fragmentary at best and then only exists because their sensor systems were always doing auto-back up to protected sites under ground not co-located with receiving stations for the military and so survived the strikes on the ground sites." Sounds a lot like Oyster Bay.....if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.......could be the same people who hit Manticore and Grayson.

I suspect that The Plan was intended to move fairly quickly after the Alignment prodded SL and Haven into a shooing war and then just go blow the stuffing out of a bunch of systems while blaming both sides. Disinformation is a wonderful thing when there isn't any actual eveidence to prove or disprove it. Or is the Alighment going opt in on try for decapitaion strikes (full EE ) on Manticore, IAE, Beowulf, Grayson, Haven and six or so major nodal SL ystems plus a few potential problems places?

Time will tell.

Brigade XO wrote:Why is it being assumed- or presented as- the big GA attack on Darius is going to happen with no intervening battles or other actions were the GA ends up gaining data on the Alignment's weapons and ships?

Galton was deliberately sacrificed as a destruction and misleading the GA on what they had found. Remember that Galton was specifically ordered NOT to use things like spider drive or any of the more modern stuff Gail knew about in her analysis and tactical planning for the defense of Galton. Sure, there were a lot of GA casualties at Galton...not the least reason because Galton did things like surrender and then apparently shooting practically every weapon left at the GA fleet....really classy move.

Do you think that it is just possible that in future engagements -and there will be some- the GA will keep the Alignment's tactical variations like that in mind? Also, since no "Invisible Spaceships" were noticed -because there were not weapons being encountered from places where there were no ships to launch them (I think your average GA tactical sensor departments would note and end up reporting on things like that) the GA is going to keep trying to find out what they are up against.

The RF's importance to the Alignment is not it's technical superiority vs the GA (they are so far at best on a level with the SLN), it's the distraction of what they are doing providing a haven or alternative to the SL's long record of corruption. They are also to infiltrate the various systems that join them with the philosophies and push ethical thinking in directions the Alignment wants it to go. Will the Alignment every -with witnesses, any witnesses- use something like an LD to support an RF force agains anybody? Not likely as that would blow the cover.

The Plan had been pushed to again get modified and exactly how the LDs are going to be use is going to have to be carefully orchestrated. It is possible to have a ship or formation of Spider Drive warships come in and devastate a system to sow terror and comfusion but every time you use a spider drive near someone who has any possibility of getting data on the ship's drive or weapons etc, you run the risk of something being found out. This is to like going into what was the planned corrupt SL which is being sucked into a war with Haven and being able to craft scenarios where you can blame one side or the other for wiping out a systems orbital presence or coming an EE strike. " Captain, what's left of the planetary government reports that there was no indication that any ships were in or near the system till weapons started appearing just before they slammed into everything man-made in the system. What they have for data is fragmentary at best and then only exists because their sensor systems were always doing auto-back up to protected sites under ground not co-located with receiving stations for the military and so survived the strikes on the ground sites." Sounds a lot like Oyster Bay.....if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.......could be the same people who hit Manticore and Grayson.

I suspect that The Plan was intended to move fairly quickly after the Alignment prodded SL and Haven into a shooing war and then just go blow the stuffing out of a bunch of systems while blaming both sides. Disinformation is a wonderful thing when there isn't any actual eveidence to prove or disprove it. Or is the Alighment going opt in on try for decapitaion strikes (full EE ) on Manticore, IAE, Beowulf, Grayson, Haven and six or so major nodal SL ystems plus a few potential problems places?

Time will tell.

I said the same thing prior to Galton. It would have been unrealistic for the GA to take on the MAN without any experience with them, win, and it be realistic and believable. So, I said some time ago that Galton was exactly that. The chance for the GA to get some information on the MAN's weapons. The bow shock. The Ninurta. Etc. So, the requirement of realism that says the GA needed to get some experience with possible MAN technology has been fulfilled with Galton. In my opinion Brigade.

But you just gave me an idea. Could the RFN end up in a series of battles against the SLN? After all, the RFN is supposed to gobble up Solarian territory. That would mean that the SLN could end up sharing that critical data about MAN ships with the GA.

penny wrote:But you just gave me an idea. Could the RFN end up in a series of battles against the SLN? After all, the RFN is supposed to gobble up Solarian territory. That would mean that the SLN could end up sharing that critical data about MAN ships with the GA.

Wouldn't that only be helpful if the MAlign shared their super secret tech with the RF navies? Which would seem to rather defeat the point of having cat's paws to act without being linked to you.

If the RF systems are the only ones (other than Galton) with, say, Ninurta missiles it kind of gives away that they're working for/with the baddies. Ruining the entire original point of setting them up.

If the RF navies don't get the MAlign's cool toys they don't seem likely to fair very well against a rebuilding SLN. But, regardless, if they don't get the MAlign's cool toys then any data the SLN gleans about their ships wouldn't give them insight into what the Darius MAN ships would have.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:But you just gave me an idea. Could the RFN end up in a series of battles against the SLN? After all, the RFN is supposed to gobble up Solarian territory. That would mean that the SLN could end up sharing that critical data about MAN ships with the GA.

Wouldn't that only be helpful if the MAlign shared their super secret tech with the RF navies? Which would seem to rather defeat the point of having cat's paws to act without being linked to you.

If the RF systems are the only ones (other than Galton) with, say, Ninurta missiles it kind of gives away that they're working for/with the baddies. Ruining the entire original point of setting them up.

If the RF navies don't get the MAlign's cool toys they don't seem likely to fair very well against a rebuilding SLN. But, regardless, if they don't get the MAlign's cool toys then any data the SLN gleans about their ships wouldn't give them insight into what the Darius MAN ships would have.

My thinking is that if the much smaller RFN has to engage the still huge SLN, the only way they will defeat the SLN is with help from the MAN. And if that happens the SLN should be in a position to get a lot of information from their experience - good or bad - with the MAN. As a matter of fact, I have always predicted that the SLN will build bridges and mend fences with the GA and turn the page on their cold historically cold relationship by sharing intel and responsibility; out of necessity, epiphany or a number of many other variables. Point is, I can't see the SLN playing dead in the face of a crumbling empire. And they are still too large for the RFN to defeat without help. That help might expose the MAN and its goodies.

The MA has had unforeseen negative effects from almost every major action they took. The biggest being the formation of the GA. I think when the MAN or the RFN or both attack the SL (and they will), the result will send the SLN to the GA for help.

The alliance will grow out of necessity and plot armor. Which would be a good thing as it would mean the MAN didn't turn out to be a paper tiger.

penny wrote:My thinking is that if the much smaller RFN has to engage the still huge SLN, the only way they will defeat the SLN is with help from the MAN. And if that happens the SLN should be in a position to get a lot of information from their experience - good or bad - with the MAN. As a matter of fact, I have always predicted that the SLN will build bridges and mend fences with the GA and turn the page on their cold historically cold relationship by sharing intel and responsibility; out of necessity, epiphany or a number of many other variables. Point is, I can't see the SLN playing dead in the face of a crumbling empire. And they are still too large for the RFN to defeat without help. That help might expose the MAN and its goodies.

The MA has had unforeseen negative effects from almost every major action they took. The biggest being the formation of the GA. I think when the MAN or the RFN or both attack the SL (and they will), the result will send the SLN to the GA for help.

The alliance will grow out of necessity and plot armor. Which would be a good thing as it would mean the MAN didn't turn out to be a paper tiger.

There is what I consider a very strong reason why the Renaissance Factor must never get involved in any fighting: they are protecting a secret wormhole that leads to Darius (or did I remember that incorrectly). If the GA were to gain control of it then all travel would have to be by hyperspace, and so much slower. Plus it might lead to the capture of ships from Darius with navigation data that indicates where the planet is.

I do not see any reason to attack the Solarian League, before any attack on the members of the Grand Alliance; the Solarian League is nothing of military importance now.

tlb wrote:There is what I consider a very strong reason why the Renaissance Factor must never get involved in any fighting: they are protecting a secret wormhole that leads to Darius (or did I remember that incorrectly). If the GA were to gain control of it then all travel would have to be by hyperspace, and so much slower. Plus it might lead to the capture of ships from Darius with navigation data that indicates where the planet is.

You remembered correctly.
Mannerheim, which is a member of the Renaissance Factor (and said to have the most powerful navy of any of those members), is helping hide and protect the Felix junction. And, yes, that is the wormhole that leads to Darius, the Twins, and one other undisclosed location.

Now they've been fairly secretive about their interest in the Felix system. But if Mannerheim was conquered their interest in that neighboring system (wiki says it's 10 LY from them) seems likely to come to light.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:My thinking is that if the much smaller RFN has to engage the still huge SLN, the only way they will defeat the SLN is with help from the MAN. And if that happens the SLN should be in a position to get a lot of information from their experience - good or bad - with the MAN. As a matter of fact, I have always predicted that the SLN will build bridges and mend fences with the GA and turn the page on their cold historically cold relationship by sharing intel and responsibility; out of necessity, epiphany or a number of many other variables. Point is, I can't see the SLN playing dead in the face of a crumbling empire. And they are still too large for the RFN to defeat without help. That help might expose the MAN and its goodies.

The MA has had unforeseen negative effects from almost every major action they took. The biggest being the formation of the GA. I think when the MAN or the RFN or both attack the SL (and they will), the result will send the SLN to the GA for help.

The alliance will grow out of necessity and plot armor. Which would be a good thing as it would mean the MAN didn't turn out to be a paper tiger.

There is what I consider a very strong reason why the Renaissance Factor must never get involved in any fighting: they are protecting a secret wormhole that leads to Darius (or did I remember that incorrectly). If the GA were to gain control of it then all travel would have to be by hyperspace, and so much slower. Plus it might lead to the capture of ships from Darius with navigation data that indicates where the planet is.

I do not see any reason to attack the Solarian League, before any attack on the members of the Grand Alliance; the Solarian League is nothing of military importance now.

How does that work? The mission statement of the RFN was to provide shelter for any entity wishing to part with the League. How can a navy protect if it is not willing to fight???

penny wrote:How does that work? The mission statement of the RFN was to provide shelter for any entity wishing to part with the League. How can a navy protect if it is not willing to fight???

It can fight, it just can't appear to fight for the Malign,....for now.