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Reporters on Galton

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Re: Reporters on Galton
Post by tlb   » Sat Oct 19, 2024 5:19 pm

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Joat42 wrote:Consider the original question posed by markusschaber and why the discussion didn't end when it was answered.

The author did not give us sufficient detail to be able to state a definitive answer to the original question. But even if such an answer was possible, the discussions can be expected to raise all sorts of sidebar questions; so I do not understand your concern.

For example, consider the following: Are there historical examples of reporters braving dangers to report in war zones? Are there historical examples of invasion fleets bringing reporters along?
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Re: Reporters on Galton
Post by penny   » Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:51 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:To the extent that it's desirable to have independent witnesses at Galton the thing they need to witness isn't the battle, and not really even the communications before hand.

Honor is a loose warhead that oftentimes malfunction. Someone does need to witness the battle and how it went down. A hidden system that nobody knows about is not a crime. And what can Galton citizens say that would convict Galton? I didn't think they knew anything. If they hate the GA, well, that isn't a crime. Nor has Galton cornered the market on hate for the GA! The SL has them beat.

What's more, you must consider that there are people on the GA's planets that still won't believe the facts even when laid out. Even with a smoking gun. Look what lies Saint Just was able to get the High Ridge government and many of its citizens to believe even though war with the Peeps had been raging off and on for years. The Peeps killed more of Manticore's citizens and wiped out more of Manticore's infrastructure, assassinated more people (IINM) than the Alignment ever has. So, I disagree. There needs to be a reporter wading as deeply in the mud as possible or the reporting won't carry and counter the weight of a sizable group of people who just do not believe.

Jonathan_S wrote:What they need to witness is that this system exists, these are the things its citizens are saying, this is what was found in its records (both public records and captured military records), here's what their captured officers and spacers are saying. All of which is expected to confirm what the GA has been saying about this (evil) Mesan Alignment.

And the reporters need live observation of the battle from flag bridge for exactly zero of that.

God made the system. Claiming it for themselves is not a crime for the Alignment. The things that you mention are circumstantial evidence. What the GA needs is admission from Galton that they committed the crimes that brought the GA there. And Galton didn't admit anything of the sort. Why didn't they admit it? And if the officers didn't admit it, why would Galton's citizens admit it?
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Re: Reporters on Galton
Post by penny   » Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:57 am

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tlb wrote:
Joat42 wrote:Consider the original question posed by markusschaber and why the discussion didn't end when it was answered.

The author did not give us sufficient detail to be able to state a definitive answer to the original question. But even if such an answer was possible, the discussions can be expected to raise all sorts of sidebar questions; so I do not understand your concern.

For example, consider the following: Are there historical examples of reporters braving dangers to report in war zones? Are there historical examples of invasion fleets bringing reporters along?

Let's see. How much time do either of us have? There are lots of answers.

Markusschaber wanted to discuss it, and he is aware that no single person in the forum would know the answer; and there would be as many different answers as there are people.

Forums host book discussions and book discussions go beyond a single or arrogant or prejudiced or misinformed or ignorant ... answer.

Book discussions are, well, fun.

And hopefully enlightening.
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Re: Reporters on Galton
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 20, 2024 10:00 am

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penny wrote:The Peeps killed more of Manticore's citizens and wiped out more of Manticore's infrastructure, assassinated more people (IINM) than the Alignment ever has. So, I disagree. There needs to be a reporter wading as deeply in the mud as possible or the reporting won't carry and counter the weight of a sizable group of people who just do not believe.

I am not sure that adds up. I believe that the Yawata Strike killed more people and destroyed more infrastructure than ships from Haven ever did.

When you add in the three orbitals at Beowulf and the forty million deaths there, the Malign has a much higher death and property count. That is not even considering that the wars were triggered by the Malign.

PS: There is text about the serfs of Galton celebrating Oyster Bay, believing that they were responsible; so I think it is safe to believe that they will testify. The officers did not deny it and committed suicide to avoid having to testify.
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Re: Reporters on Galton
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Oct 20, 2024 12:52 pm

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penny wrote:And what can Galton citizens say that would convict Galton? I didn't think they knew anything. If they hate the GA, well, that isn't a crime. Nor has Galton cornered the market on hate for the GA! The SL has them beat.

Um, weren't there planet wide celebrations about the success of Oyster Bay?

So the knowledge that Galton was responsible for a peacetime unprovoked sneak attack that causing millions of civilian casualties would be widely known and would convict Galton in the court of galactic public opinion (and show that the Grand Alliance's attack was totally justified)


Additionally, Manticore is still trying to convince the League and others that the real (evil) Mesan Alignment exists and the citizens of Galton believe, and are proud of, being the home of that organization. So that's another thing that'd come out of interviewing them
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Re: Reporters on Galton
Post by penny   » Sun Oct 20, 2024 4:53 pm

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BTW, if the Alignment knows about the truth sensing abilities of Treecats, they can refuse to be around them. They can always state that there would be a danger of a "primitive species" getting loose and ruining the food chain or introducing diseases. Treecats are probably not accepted as a sentient species on Galton.

"You are not going to question anyone in this system in the presence of a lion."
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Re: Reporters on Galton
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 20, 2024 5:10 pm

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penny wrote:BTW, if the Alignment knows about the truth sensing abilities of Treecats, they can refuse to be around them. They can always state that there would be a danger of a "primitive species" getting loose and ruining the food chain or introducing diseases. Treecats are probably not accepted as a sentient species on Galton.

"You are not going to question anyone in this system in the presence of a lion."

When would this ever come up in a situation where the Malign had the right to refuse? Galton has been conquered, so NO ONE there has the right to refuse.

PS: The Malign does know about the abilities of the treecats and tried to examine a captured one.

PPS: What an extraordinary assortment of legal rights you have assigned to the residents of Galton. The right to be questioned without a treecat present. The right to sue over being conquered without due process. There probably have been other things; all without effect, since the Grand Alliance now controls Galton and will treat the residents as they would treat any other conquered people (so they do have rights. just NOT the expansive ones you mentioned).
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Re: Reporters on Galton
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Oct 20, 2024 5:52 pm

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tlb wrote:When would this ever come up in a situation where the Malign had the right to refuse? Galton has been conquered, so NO ONE there has the right to refuse.

PS: The Malign does know about the abilities of the treecats and tried to examine a captured one.

PPS: What an extraordinary assortment of legal rights you have assigned to the residents of Galton. The right to be questioned without a treecat present. The right to sue over being conquered without due process. There probably have been other things; all without effect, since the Grand Alliance now controls Galton and will treat the residents as they would treat any other conquered people (so they do have rights. just NOT the expansive ones you mentioned).

Though, frankly, since the general population seem proud of being the Mesan Alignment and for how they successfully attack Manticore what makes someone think they'd refuse to talk about that or would care if a treecat was present while they bragged?

And, as far as they know, they're telling the truth. It's likely that the very, very, very, few people who knew there was someplace above Galton in the MAlign died on the defensive stations.
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Re: Reporters on Galton
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 20, 2024 7:06 pm

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penny wrote:BTW, if the Alignment knows about the truth sensing abilities of Treecats, they can refuse to be around them. They can always state that there would be a danger of a "primitive species" getting loose and ruining the food chain or introducing diseases. Treecats are probably not accepted as a sentient species on Galton.

"You are not going to question anyone in this system in the presence of a lion."

tlb wrote:When would this ever come up in a situation where the Malign had the right to refuse? Galton has been conquered, so NO ONE there has the right to refuse.


And no one outside the GA top government knows that they can at all. The fact that some treecat is being allowed near the suspect does not mean the suspect is being told of the abilities of the treecat. The treecat does not even have to be in the same room; just use those one-way mirrors that cop shows like to use. That doesn't block the treecats' abilities.

When they were present during questioning, the treecats weren't using their hand signals to communicate. They know better. They just sit there pretending to be dumb (and playing dumb), and give a few underhanded signals like a card player would with their partner. Add to that something to keep the suspect's attention away from the treecat, like a major distraction in the form of a gaudy or boisterous investigator, and the suspect will never notice the treecat's subtle signs of "nope, that was a lie."

Is it legal to subject a suspect to a non-invasive truth detector without their consent or awareness? I don't know. My guess is this would be no different than bringing an expert in facial tics and cues, except that the treecat is near 100% infallible. What I do know is that there has been no time to rule on the legality of using treecats like this in the few years since they've come out and shown they can, indeed, communicate and detect lies.

Maybe a later court will rule that all of this was illegal and that "fruit of the poisonous tree" such confessions cannot legally be used in a court of law, nor legal warrants for search and seizure, thus evidence thus obtained. So it might be a short-lived spin-off series where treecats join a legal practice, called "NCIS: Landing City." But in this case, in the judgement of war crimes, an overarching transnational agreement like the Deneb Convention might apply. And this is military justice, under the military codes, not civilian courts. It might be that the Manticore Unified Code of Military Justice does not allow suspects to deny non-invasive truth-verification mechanisms. All the investigator has to say is that "we have a very sensitive method to tell whether you're lying" and not elaborate on that.

Besides, I don't think this will matter for the majority of the population of Galton: they will not be held liable for having been brainwashed. It's the leadership that the GA and Intel services will be after, and either those have died or there are heaps of evidence against them anyway.
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Re: Reporters on Galton
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 20, 2024 7:49 pm

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penny wrote:BTW, if the Alignment knows about the truth sensing abilities of Treecats, they can refuse to be around them. They can always state that there would be a danger of a "primitive species" getting loose and ruining the food chain or introducing diseases. Treecats are probably not accepted as a sentient species on Galton.

"You are not going to question anyone in this system in the presence of a lion."
tlb wrote:When would this ever come up in a situation where the Malign had the right to refuse? Galton has been conquered, so NO ONE there has the right to refuse.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:And no one outside the GA top government knows that they can at all. The fact that some treecat is being allowed near the suspect does not mean the suspect is being told of the abilities of the treecat. The treecat does not even have to be in the same room; just use those one-way mirrors that cop shows like to use. That doesn't block the treecats' abilities.

When they were present during questioning, the treecats weren't using their hand signals to communicate. They know better. They just sit there pretending to be dumb (and playing dumb), and give a few underhanded signals like a card player would with their partner. Add to that something to keep the suspect's attention away from the treecat, like a major distraction in the form of a gaudy or boisterous investigator, and the suspect will never notice the treecat's subtle signs of "nope, that was a lie."

Is it legal to subject a suspect to a non-invasive truth detector without their consent or awareness? I don't know. My guess is this would be no different than bringing an expert in facial tics and cues, except that the treecat is near 100% infallible. What I do know is that there has been no time to rule on the legality of using treecats like this in the few years since they've come out and shown they can, indeed, communicate and detect lies.

I do not believe that the knowledge of the tree-cats abilities is limited to the top levels of the Grand Alliance. Starting in Mission of Honor we have reports of POW's being interrogated with a cat present. Later we have immigrants to Torch being scanned by a cat. Then cats were assigned to all the top people in the GA. Knowledge of such widespread use cannot be contained. In any case we know that Mesa did have control of a cat, which died before they could get useful biological information. Here is one scene in MoH:
Chapter 2 wrote:"Thank you for coming, Admiral," she said out loud, and this time there was nothing halfway about his smile.
"I was honored by the invitation, of course, Admiral," he replied with exquisite courtesy, exactly as if there'd been any real question about a prisoner of war's accepting an "invitation" to dinner from his captor. Nor was it the first such invitation he'd accepted over the past four T-months. This would be the seventh time he'd dined with Honor and her husband and wife. Unlike him, however, Honor was aware it would be the last time they'd be dining together for at least the foreseeable future.
"I'm sure you were," she told him with a smile of her own. "And, of course, even if you weren't, you're far too polite to admit it."
"Oh, of course," he agreed affably, and Nimitz bleeked the treecat equivalent of a laugh from his perch.
"That's enough of that, Nimitz," Tourville told him, wagging a raised forefinger. "Just because you can see inside someone's head is no excuse for undermining these polite little social fictions!"
Nimitz's true-hands rose, and Honor glanced over her shoulder at him as they signed nimbly. She gazed at him for a moment, then chuckled and turned back to Tourville.
"He says there's more to see inside some two-legs' heads than others."
"Oh?" Tourville glowered at the 'cat. "Should I assume he's casting aspersions on the content of any particular two-leg's cranium?"
Nimitz's fingers flickered again, and Honor smiled as she watched them, then glanced at Tourville once more.
"He says he meant it as a general observation," she said solemnly, "but he can't help it if you think it ought to apply to anyone in particular."
"Oh, he does, does he?"
Tourville glowered some more, but there was genuine humor in his mind glow. Not that there had been the first time he'd realized the news reports about the treecats' recently confirmed telempathic abilities were accurate.
Honor hadn't blamed him—or any of the other POWs who'd reacted the same way—a bit. The thought of being interrogated by a professional, experienced analyst who knew how to put together even the smallest of clues you might unknowingly let slip was bad enough. When that professional was assisted by someone who could read your very thoughts, it went from bad to terrifying in record time. Of course, treecats couldn't really read any human's actual thoughts—the mental . . . frequencies, for want of a better word, were apparently too different. There'd been no way for any of the captured Havenites to know that, however, and every one of them had assumed the worst, initially, at least.
And, in fact, it was bad enough from their perspective as it was. Nimitz and his fellow treecats might not have been able to read the prisoners' thoughts, but they'd been able to tell from their emotions whenever they were lying or attempting to mislead. And they'd been able to tell when those emotions spiked as the interrogation approached something a POW most desperately wanted to conceal.
It hadn't taken very long for most of the captured personnel to figure out that even though a treecat could guide an interrogator's questioning, it couldn't magically pluck the desired information out of someone else's mind. That didn't keep the 'cats from providing a devastating advantage, but it did mean that as long as they simply refused to answer, as was their guaranteed right under the Deneb Accords, the furry little lie detectors couldn't dig specific, factual information out of them.
That wasn't enough to keep at least some of them from bitterly resenting the 'cats' presence, and a significant handful of those POWs had developed a positive hatred for them, as if their ability to sense someone's emotions was a form of personal violation. The vast majority, however, were more rational about it, and several—including Tourville, who'd had the opportunity to interact with Nimitz years before, when Honor had been his prisoner—were far too fascinated to resent them.
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