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Commerce raiding

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Re: Commerce raiding
Post by Sigs   » Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:40 pm

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Theemile wrote:Seaford 9, Mendoza, Cheaslea, and several other systems held Havenite forward operating bases to support the attack on Manticore. It has been mentioned several times the education issues Haven faced - they decided to concentrate their trained maintainers at fleet bases, not on ships or Fleet trains due to how few there were. onboard ship maintainers were trained not to repair system, but to replace modules. Such a system ties formations to regularly return to local bases, with short operating tempos.

The PRN, and later the RHN, learned and gained capabilities during the the war as lessons were learned (and the carefully built operating bases were lost). Operations like Stalking Horse and Giscard in Silesia were a trial of newly built capabilities and testing new doctrine, and not indicative of the capabilities of majority of the PRN.


Fleet train requires ammunition ships, supply ships, tankers, repair ships and maybe medical ships. Ammunition ships, supply ships and tankers are a requirement for offensive operations, no question about. A repair ships is required to bring damaged units to where they can make their way to a friendly port under their own power.
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Re: Commerce raiding
Post by Sigs   » Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:43 pm

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Relax wrote:Whole thread can be summed up:

#1 Why build DD's? Short legged build CL's
#2 Why build CL's? No armor build CA's
#3 Why build CA's? No Heavy armor&endurance, build BC's
#4 Why build BC's? No capital grade missiles build BB's
#5 Why build BB's? No capital grade sidewalls/Grasers build DN
#6 Why build DN's? Not as large as possible build SD
#7 Why build SD's? Not as large as forts

Economics is why DN's are not on commerce raiding or defense.
POLITICS, $$$ determines what you can build and what you can USE to either DEFEND your commerce or attack someone's commerce.




DN's are not used for commerce raining or defence because they are overkill in that role... BUT the RHN had 370 BB's that sat around doing nothing of value which would force the RMN to use DN's to defend convoys at least to allied systems or recently occupied systems.

The RHn already has the BB's so why not put them to use to divert RMN wallers?
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Re: Commerce raiding
Post by Sigs   » Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:50 pm

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tlb wrote:So, you do not think that Haven was trying to recapture the most valuable systems from Manticore? Isn't the push to capture Trevor's Star when Manticore had the edge in missiles pods? So Haven moves to retake and faces an Alpha launch before the Manticore retreat. Isn't that a losing tactic, even with BB's? The systems may have been valuable to Haven, but that does not mean that they are equally valuable to Manticore.

PS: I think the cold node surprise only involved incompetent commanders.



Im not talking about valuable systems, I am talking about all systems that the Alliance is picketing after conquest. If the picket leaves then they will have to send a heavy force to recapture this system, if the picket stays and fights they get crushed by a force led by battleships.

Both sides have SD's and DN's but Haven has BB's which they can use to force the RMN to disperse their wallers without actually affecting Havens; core systems.
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Re: Commerce raiding
Post by Sigs   » Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:53 pm

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tlb wrote:It was a single battle and I do not know if they used all ammunition. Also Tourville lost two thirds of his fleet, so I would agree that it was "pretty risky".


it doesn't matter if they did or did not use all of their ammunition, what matters is that they could have used all of their ammunition and and they would need to rearm. Also they would need to refuel because its a long round trip and there is the potential to burn a lot of fuel during a prolonged battle itself.
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Re: Commerce raiding
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:57 pm

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Sigs wrote:That's what didn't make sense, they capture a bunch of systems that they then picket with cruisers and below, why not use BB's to recapture those systems and force the alliance to fight for the same real estate over and over again, the fight to get to Trevor's Star wont be easy if they have to recapture everything around it 3,4 or 5 times.

Actually even tertiary systems were usually picketed by ships heavier than cruisers.

One of the rational advanced in Echoes of Honor for modern LACs and CLACs was to "be able to provide us with a local defense capability that can stand up to raiding Peep squadrons and let us pull our regular capital ships off picket duty" -- those "penny-packet pickets" of (mostly) DNs that were politically necessary even if the Admiralty would have preferred to concentrate them for offensive action.

Even Seaford Nine, which EoH says the Admiralty felt it could do without and had been drawing down the picket still had "two squadrons of heavy cruisers, and a reinforced division of superdreadnoughts, supported by a half-squadron of battlecruisers and a couple of destroyers" picketing it. 12-16 CAs, 3 SDs, and 4 BCs (originally that picket, on what had become a fairly unimportant system, had had "six or eight of the wall, plus a dozen battlecruisers" -- that's why when the Peeps did hit it, expecting that original force, they brought along 15-20 DN/SD to back up their 10 BBs; so they'd have overwhelming force.

So BBs attempting to raid picketed systems are likely to run into at least 2-4 DNs backed by BCs and cruisers -- and because it's a defensive picket all with access to towed pods. Send enough BBs and you can chase such picket force out; but unless you send truly overwhelming forces or get lucky against a stupid commander for the first couple years of the war the RMN's monopoly on missile pods ensure you'll take larger losses than the picket will. And if the BBs don't pull back then nodal response fleet will show up with enough force to crush them and make the losses even more lopsided.

At that point in the war the Peeps might have been able to spend that many semi-obsolete BBs; (after all they pulled together a bunch and lost them against Honor at Grayson) -- but without the forces to actually hold the recaptured systems (or something in them worth destroying - like the yards at Grayson) I don't see the crew losses being worth it for the Peeps. Those BBs have a lot of trained spacers who you'd like to be around to form the core of crews as new SDs come out of the yards.

Now, later on, after Trevor's Star was taken and reinforced so heavily it was considered certain to be held, a combination of things (ships overdue for refit and maintenance, having to strip pickets to build up 3rd Fleet at Trevor's Star, etc.) did lead to quiet sectors getting stripped of much of their picket strength. At that later point, in the lull between the fall of Trevor's Star and the launch of the new 8th fleet's Buttercup, many pickets were light enough (especially with the Peeps also now having towed pods) that a few BBs could have raided those systems. But by that point such attacks are far too late to save Trevor's Star; and they're never going to make the Admiralty significantly reduce 3rd fleet in order to reinforce pickets in systems that simply aren't very important anymore.

And even then important systems, like Elric (where they were putting in a support base), were still picketed by wallers. Elric has 5 SDs (well actually 3 SD(P)s still pretending to be SDs and 2 SDs) plus battlecruisers and cruisers. A BB force isn't going to be able to raid that successfuly -- and that was a system that, even with the partially complete support base, wasn't expected to hold against any serious attack. And in fact they evacuated the base and destroyed it before performing a fighting withdrawal.


So I think you're overestimating how effective BBs would have been at diverting RMN forces by raiding system pickets
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Re: Commerce raiding
Post by Relax   » Tue Oct 15, 2024 1:03 am

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tlb wrote: The problem (as you know) is that gravity plates do not work "just fine", because a ship like that cannot take full advantage of a gravity wave.

Warshawki sails work just fine with grav plates. Every ship already has them.

You do not have to be the fastest thing in space, just the toughest baddest thing in space for the least amount of $$$.

Honestly if these ships can actually be built on an assembly line who knows which version is the best bang for the buck as we have no clue what the true costs are in building them. No has tried making an assembly line warship before in our world(we are coming close with maybe Virginia class, but not really). Surely it can be done. Unfortunately I might be alive(I hope not) to see such a ship. For all I know the BC is king.
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Re: Commerce raiding
Post by Relax   » Tue Oct 15, 2024 1:14 am

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Sigs wrote:
Relax wrote:Whole thread can be summed up:

#1 Why build DD's? Short legged build CL's
#2 Why build CL's? No armor build CA's
#3 Why build CA's? No Heavy armor&endurance, build BC's
#4 Why build BC's? No capital grade missiles build BB's
#5 Why build BB's? No capital grade sidewalls/Grasers build DN
#6 Why build DN's? Not as large as possible build SD
#7 Why build SD's? Not as large as forts

Economics is why DN's are not on commerce raiding or defense.
POLITICS, $$$ determines what you can build and what you can USE to either DEFEND your commerce or attack someone's commerce.




DN's are not used for commerce raining or defence because they are overkill in that role... BUT the RHN had 370 BB's that sat around doing nothing of value which would force the RMN to use DN's to defend convoys at least to allied systems or recently occupied systems.

The RHn already has the BB's so why not put them to use to divert RMN wallers?

Partially true and why this discussion is fairly long. How many convoy systems are there in reality? You can't grab em in hyper9theoretically you can) So, grav waves as shown in books, but why bother they are slow and they had plenty of RHN Sultan BC's and they knew RMN shipping only had DD's/CL's still.

Also: When were they actually updated? HOW MANY were updated? We do not know. We only know they are an OLD design.

EDIT: Also, RMN had missile pods, RHN did not. So for system defense... Ugly exchange ratio. Commerce raiding grav waves, now there we have something.

Also: Their ENTIRE senior Admirals/planning staff was decapitated. Read up on what the USSR "senior" command was like in WWII... Shy mice who did NOTHING without Stalin's express authority.

And elephant in room --> DW fumble fingered it. You can't envision everything when you begin the series and haven't been paid. Bills are piling up. First 5 books I think were bought in one fell swoop? Flag in Exile I believe is #5 and was supposed to align with UK/French war with Nelson around. He had no idea more were going to be ordered though by time publication he certainly did.
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Re: Commerce raiding
Post by tlb   » Tue Oct 15, 2024 9:20 am

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tlb wrote:It was a single battle and I do not know if they used all ammunition. Also Tourville lost two thirds of his fleet, so I would agree that it was "pretty risky".
Sigs wrote:it doesn't matter if they did or did not use all of their ammunition, what matters is that they could have used all of their ammunition and and they would need to rearm. Also they would need to refuel because its a long round trip and there is the potential to burn a lot of fuel during a prolonged battle itself.

If your only point is that they must have had a fleet train, I expect you are correct for that time in the war. That would have not been true in the beginning, which goes to explain why they did not do much commerce raiding in Silesia then.

.
Last edited by tlb on Tue Oct 15, 2024 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Commerce raiding
Post by tlb   » Tue Oct 15, 2024 9:31 am

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tlb wrote:So, you do not think that Haven was trying to recapture the most valuable systems from Manticore? Isn't the push to capture Trevor's Star when Manticore had the edge in missiles pods? So Haven moves to retake and faces an Alpha launch before the Manticore retreat. Isn't that a losing tactic, even with BB's? The systems may have been valuable to Haven, but that does not mean that they are equally valuable to Manticore.

PS: I think the cold node surprise only involved incompetent commanders.
Sigs wrote:Im not talking about valuable systems, I am talking about all systems that the Alliance is picketing after conquest. If the picket leaves then they will have to send a heavy force to recapture this system, if the picket stays and fights they get crushed by a force led by battleships.

Both sides have SD's and DN's but Haven has BB's which they can use to force the RMN to disperse their wallers without actually affecting Havens; core systems.

I doubt the pickets would be crushed if lead by a competent commander. They would have flushed their pods and left (perhaps leaving an observer). The roving heavy backup unit would arrive (loaded with pods) and force Haven's ships to flee. Then the system would be left with the original RMN picket ships. Note that the SD's of Manticore do not have to disperse, they can remain concentrated in the force used to drive Haven away.

Both pod launches would damage the ships from Haven, resulting in a net loss for them.
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Re: Commerce raiding
Post by tlb   » Tue Oct 15, 2024 9:37 am

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tlb wrote: The problem (as you know) is that gravity plates do not work "just fine", because a ship like that cannot take full advantage of a gravity wave.
Relax wrote:Warshawki sails work just fine with grav plates. Every ship already has them.

You do not have to be the fastest thing in space, just the toughest baddest thing in space for the least amount of $$$.

I know they can work, I have already agreed that they could work; I am only saying that they do not work "FINE". Being the absolutely slowest thing in space is not a problem on defense (the proper function of a fort), but it is horrible if you are not even fast enough to get into good missile range.

Also if it takes weeks to get into position, then you need many more to make up for all that are tied up in transit.
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