1926 PD - Export hardware

Relax wrote:Yes, those are the numbers I button pushed years ago as well regarding drive time/distance. Thanks for the exact reminder 15% superior--> ON RMN super capacitor which to our knowledge the MALIGN does not have.

Weights of Laserheads... Is Very scant to say the least.

70ton cruiser grade from OBS SDM Number of laserrods either 6 or never said?
94t MK16 DDM 6 laser heads ~ effectively capital grade. SFTS
~Capital Grade has 10 Laser Heads

From Bu9 drawing, we can infer ~55%-->60% of MK16 DDM is Laserhead.

60% places 56t limit as laserhead on a modern Missile.
60% places 42t limit as laserhead SDM

If above is correct: Capital Grade RMN if 10 rods vrs 6 has a minimum weight of ~93t, but I believe DW has stated Capital grade laserheads are LONGER and therefore = heavier laserrods. This ~= 100t.

Same Micro Fusion bottle? as MK16? Places tonnage ~140t-->150t

Mk-13 cruiser weight missile from In Fire Forged:

The Mk-13 impeller drive anti-ship missile bus is a 12 meter long 78 ton weapon capable of a maximum 88,000 gee acceleration and carrying the 15 megaton Mk-86 pure hydrogen fusion warhead with six Mk-73 three meter independently targetable laser submunition vehicles. It was designed to be fired from the even then venerable Mod-7 series launcher.

The 70 ton missile in OBS was the DD/CL weight Mk 50 fired from the Mod 4c launchers, which was replaced with the larger Mk 34 fired from Mod 6 series launchers, because a boom/burn/laserhead variant of the MK 50 could not be produced, requiring older ships with the Mod 4c launchers to carry separate warheads for each use.

The DD/CL missiles are supposed to carry 3-4 3m long laserheads, where the cruiser weight missiles normally carried 5-6m long laserheads

Theemile wrote:\

Mk-13 cruiser weight missile from In Fire Forged:

I just realized, I own In Fire Forged, but never read it. Life was a bit busy... g

Relax wrote:But in ship carrying form? Nope. Of course we also now have RD drives more than capable of 20,000G with ~infinite endurance so why bother with missiles? Just show up with a pile of freighters(effectively free), dump these buggers out and fire from beyond the hyper limit. Who cares about size, we are told essentially material and energy(power for refining//assembly) is effectively free. We are told that even though Manticore etc had Billions of people, a mere ~million made everything during a DO or DIE wartime footing At those ratio's you can easily 1000X that manufacturing base manpower required for gargantuan RD/Missile combo and to Hell with the entire series of tech progression so far and the reasons carefully shepherded along in the series.

Freighters and RDs are not free. The book cost of a freighter is somewhere in the order of a billion Manticore dollars. Why it costs so much is irrelevant: it does cost it.

However cheap an RD is, it is more expensive than a missile. It's bigger, has an actual restartable power plant inside instead of capacitors, has impellers that don't burn out in 3 minutes of use, etc. For each one of those you build, it's a number of missiles you don't because of budgets, materials, time, and manufacturing space.

You can put a warhead in them and have them take out a target. That's what Mistletoe and Silver Bullet are. But they aren't used in quantity.

Moreover, the RMN and later the GA would never use such a thing unattended. The MAlign did with the SBs, but the use of Mistletoe against the RHN's Moriarty happened while there was an RMN force in-system to pull the trigger. So the GA would never use freighters to dump a load of them and transit out.

Finally, back to the freighters: that's a TUFT like the SLN did, which means at a minimum it costs your shipping companies in opportunity. And those are bog slow freighters, capable of 150 gravities at best and only Gamma and Delta bands in hyper.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Relax wrote:But in ship carrying form? Nope. Of course we also now have RD drives more than capable of 20,000G with ~infinite endurance so why bother with missiles? Just show up with a pile of freighters(effectively free),

Freighters and RDs are not free.

However cheap an RD is, it is more expensive than a missile.

Huh? You get the RD body back... the 2nd stage CM drive carries the warhead/laser rods...

Freighters have FAR greater carrying capacity, so if you can just hyper in using the CHEAPEST form of transportation in the universe and smash all infrastructure staying outside hyper limit, entire premise of warfighting tech in the HV vanishes.

Relax wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Freighters and RDs are not free.

However cheap an RD is, it is more expensive than a missile.

Huh? You get the RD body back... the 2nd stage CM drive carries the warhead/laser rods...

Freighters have FAR greater carrying capacity, so if you can just hyper in using the CHEAPEST form of transportation in the universe and smash all infrastructure staying outside hyper limit, entire premise of warfighting tech in the HV vanishes.

This goes back to the "Why even build the Leonard Detweiler class" argument. The Pods and Graser torpedoes could have been just dropped of via a freighter from over the hyper limit. If you have precision stealth strike capability from distances past the hyperlimit, custom built warships are no longer a requirement for warfighting. A single freighter can carry sufficient ordinance to trash a system (4 SD(p)s worth of Pods), so even if jumped by a DD or LAC 1/2 way through unloading and lost, it still would have accomplished its job, for less cost than a single CA, and less personal loss than a frigate.

Relax wrote:Huh? You get the RD body back... the 2nd stage CM drive carries the warhead/laser rods...

That's called a Hasta. And you can see how well they fare against well-defended targets. The RD stage has low acceleration, so the warhead needs a long distance to get up to measurable speed, but that also gives the target a lot of time to spin up counter-measures and get good locks on the oncoming missiles, because above a certain speed threshold, the RD is not stealthy any more. See the Battle of Galton.

And those RD bodies were not retrieved. Usually, you don't can't retrieve such things unless you end up in possession of the system. So they're not good for an attack that might fail. And as stated above, it's limited for defence, because you have fewer missiles and the attacker doesn't usually send advance notice they're coming (Filareta did oblige).

Freighters have FAR greater carrying capacity, so if you can just hyper in using the CHEAPEST form of transportation in the universe and smash all infrastructure staying outside hyper limit, entire premise of warfighting tech in the HV vanishes.

That's an Eridani Edict violation and an atrocity. It likely turns the entire humanity against you, so you had better win against everyone if you're going to employ this tactic.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Relax wrote:Huh? You get the RD body back... the 2nd stage CM drive carries the warhead/laser rods...

That's called a Hasta. And you can see how well they fare against well-defended targets. The RD stage has low acceleration, so the warhead needs a long distance to get up to measurable speed, but that also gives the target a lot of time to spin up counter-measures and get good locks on the oncoming missiles, because above a certain speed threshold, the RD is not stealthy any more. See the Battle of Galton.

And those RD bodies were not retrieved. Usually, you don't can't retrieve such things unless you end up in possession of the system. So they're not good for an attack that might fail. And as stated above, it's limited for defence, because you have fewer missiles and the attacker doesn't usually send advance notice they're coming (Filareta did oblige).

Freighters have FAR greater carrying capacity, so if you can just hyper in using the CHEAPEST form of transportation in the universe and smash all infrastructure staying outside hyper limit, entire premise of warfighting tech in the HV vanishes.

That's an Eridani Edict violation and an atrocity. It likely turns the entire humanity against you, so you had better win against everyone if you're going to employ this tactic.

So, your idea of an argument is the abject incompetence from the SLN instead of OYSTER BAY?

Oh yes, and the "incompetence" still worked.

Relax wrote:So, your idea of an argument is the abject incompetence from the SLN instead of OYSTER BAY?

Oh yes, and the "incompetence" still worked.

No, I'm not saying that the SLN is your worry. That's why I wrote that it turns the entire humanity against you. Previously, the SLN would be the one paying a visit and for anyone except the GA, that is still a sufficient threat.

The SLN is toothless now, but it is embarking on a modernisation effort under Admiral Kingsford. It will get its teeth back. So don't try to get away with an EEV just because the SLN is currently busy. And besides, others can take up the slack meanwhile.

Destroying the entire industrial capacity of a system and committing atrocities will not win you any friends. You were not likely to gain any in the system you attacked in the first place, but there's a big difference from there to everyone else. Something like a 3-order of magnitude difference. Moreover, unless you are the MAlign and your objective is to really just depopulate the settled galaxy and cause chaos, you don't want to give the survivors any more chance for revanchism. You'd need to supply sufficient forces to occupy the target (all of them) for a considerable period of time while you brainwash the residents.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
That's an Eridani Edict violation and an atrocity. It likely turns the entire humanity against you, so you had better win against everyone if you're going to employ this tactic.

It's only an EE violation if an unguided munition is sent in on a ballistic course and kills innocents indiscriminately. Military targets hit by guided or unguided munitions are fair game.

Of course, EE violations are kinda void at the moment, sine the SLN is toothless.

I still frown upon exporting hardware to just any ole ally simply because it is an ally. As opposed to sending a contingent of ships manned with more experienced Manticoran officers. Like in Honor's initial introduction to Endicott when the Graysons weren't quite up to snuff when knowing how to properly and more efficiently fight the ship.

An ally won't just withdraw when overwhelming odds come cross the hyper wall. Neither will a Manticoran contingency that is protecting the Honor of the Queen. So, better the experienced fighters to give as good as it gets. I am none too sure the GA would want the industrious SL to get its hands on certain tech. And for the SL, any GA warship captured would provide a wealth of information.