1926 PD - Export hardware

Relax wrote:All valid points guys. --> We don't know. Never will.

I still have a massive problem with WHY a CM can magically haul around an entire missile Laser head weighing ~50 tons(cruiser grade) or upwards of 100t for a capital grade missile, yet have ZERO degradation in acceleration, or time duration... I mean what fool would not put that CM drive as the MAIN drive? It would have superior kinematics by far. Grr.

I know the series is ~finished(close enough), but the cataphract situation just really torqued my tail feathers over last couple of years.

Almost wish Cachat had never been invented and Raoul grew up. But hey, wishes and fishes among mice and men keeps the doctor away right? Oh wait, hrmm...

Those masses sound a bit high for just the laserhead; but I don't have any data handy to check it. Still, I agree that it's surprising that such a big warhead can be shoved around so quickly.

Because, while the RMN did fit the far smaller warhead of the Viper onto a CM drive without impacting its acceleration or endurance, I agree it's a bit harder to believe that you can do the same with a capital grade laserhead. If missile drive compensation is anything at all like ship compensators you'd expect the larger volume to impact the survivable acceleration.


I crunched the numbers and confirmed for myself that you're right about the superior kinematics (at least for multi-drive missiles; where they can retain terminal maneuvering despite the shorter drive endurance) -- though the fact that no known CM drive can survive more than 75 seconds of power means it's not quite as significant an improvement as one might initially think.

* Mk16 DDM can run at 46,000g for 360s - reaching 0.27c and 29.2 million km.

* A hypothetical RMN DDM Viper could run at 130,000g for 150s - reaching 0.64c and 14.3 million km. Or with a 156s ballistic phase reaching 29.2 million km in just 306s (54s, or 15%, quicker)

* Mk23 MDM can run at 46,000g for 540s - reaching 0.81c and 65.7 million km.

* A hypothetical RMN MDM Viper could run at 130,000g for 225s - reaching 0.96c and 32.2 million km. Or with a 176s ballistic phase reaching 65.8 million km in just 401s (139s, or 15%, quicker)

Though RFC agreed, when talking about 4-drive system defense missiles, that he might need to end up declaring a speed limit for missiles that are actually tracking a target -- and if he claimed 0.9c then obviously the numbers change a little; but not enough to remove the entire advantage of the 3 CM drives.

Theemile wrote:The Malign knows that RMN and RHN had 3 and 4 drive missiles, Even though the SLN doesn't. You would think we would have seen a 3 or 5 stage missile at Galton if it was possible (Since Galton was only planned to be thrown under the Bus at the last minute (though it seems that had been a contingency for the last decade or so.).

Galton was not allowed to have a true MDM. The MAlign's version of that is the Ninurta and Gail was specifically forbidden to simulate a tactical solution to defending "System Alpha" using it. Strictly speaking, we don't now the Ninurta is a true MDM; all we really know about it is Gail's musings that she's not allowed to use it and that it's better than the Cataphracts. In that context, when she's thinking about ranges, the clear implication is that it's an MDM.

It wouldn't be surprising to find the Ninurta in Galton or some research on MDMs, because it would be the logical next step and Galton would be expected to research it, especially if they had acquired some samples of the baffles.

But it wasn't. So you can't read into it that 3- or 5-stage end-to-end missiles are impossible.

Theemile wrote:The Malign knows that RMN and RHN had 3 and 4 drive missiles, Even though the SLN doesn't. You would think we would have seen a 3 or 5 stage missile at Galton if it was possible (Since Galton was only planned to be thrown under the Bus at the last minute (though it seems that had been a contingency for the last decade or so.).

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Galton was not allowed to have a true MDM. The MAlign's version of that is the Ninurta and Gail was specifically forbidden to simulate a tactical solution to defending "System Alpha" using it. Strictly speaking, we don't now the Ninurta is a true MDM; all we really know about it is Gail's musings that she's not allowed to use it and that it's better than the Cataphracts. In that context, when she's thinking about ranges, the clear implication is that it's an MDM.

It wouldn't be surprising to find the Ninurta in Galton or some research on MDMs, because it would be the logical next step and Galton would be expected to research it, especially if they had acquired some samples of the baffles.

But it wasn't. So you can't read into it that 3- or 5-stage end-to-end missiles are impossible.

The only thing that I remember as being off limits for Galton was the spider-drive. Where is is stated that Galton was not allowed a multi-drive missile (given that they had Cataphracts)?

Yes, those are the numbers I button pushed years ago as well regarding drive time/distance. Thanks for the exact reminder 15% superior--> ON RMN super capacitor which to our knowledge the MALIGN does not have.

Weights of Laserheads... Is Very scant to say the least.

70ton cruiser grade from OBS SDM Number of laserrods either 6 or never said?
94t MK16 DDM 6 laser heads ~ effectively capital grade. SFTS
~Capital Grade has 10 Laser Heads

From Bu9 drawing, we can infer ~55%-->60% of MK16 DDM is Laserhead.

60% places 56t limit as laserhead on a modern Missile.
60% places 42t limit as laserhead SDM

If above is correct: Capital Grade RMN if 10 rods vrs 6 has a minimum weight of ~93t, but I believe DW has stated Capital grade laserheads are LONGER and therefore = heavier laserrods. This ~= 100t.

Same Micro Fusion bottle? as MK16? Places tonnage ~140t-->150t

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:
It wouldn't be surprising to find the Ninurta in Galton or some research on MDMs, because it would be the logical next step and Galton would be expected to research it, especially if they had acquired some samples of the baffles.

But it wasn't. So you can't read into it that 3- or 5-stage end-to-end missiles are impossible.

The only thing that I remember as being off limits for Galton was the spider-drive. Where is is stated that Galton was not allowed a multi-drive missile (given that they had Cataphracts)?

We have a time limit problem. Galton was supposed to look BIG and scary. OB just happened. Mesa was abandoned. Very short period. R&D takes time. Production takes time. They already have Cataphract line up and running.

Remember BIG and S C A R Y Clearly they do NOT have a true RMN/RHN baffle--> They wouldn't be wasting their time with Cataphracts if they did. Though apparently Baffle doesn't matter anymore and latest Cataphract is superior to MK16 other than ECM

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Galton was not allowed to have a true MDM. The MAlign's version of that is the Ninurta and Gail was specifically forbidden to simulate a tactical solution to defending "System Alpha" using it. Strictly speaking, we don't now the Ninurta is a true MDM; all we really know about it is Gail's musings that she's not allowed to use it and that it's better than the Cataphracts. In that context, when she's thinking about ranges, the clear implication is that it's an MDM.

The only thing that I remember as being off limits for Galton was the spider-drive. Where is is stated that Galton was not allowed a multi-drive missile (given that they had Cataphracts)?

As ThinkMarkedly says we don't know for sure that it was a true multi-drive missile. But here's the text

To End In Fire wrote:Just as Gail had been denied the graser torpedoes, she’d also been denied the Ninurta, the Alignment’s latest anti-ship missile. The ones she’d been allowed instead were basically improved versions of the Solarian League’s Cataphracts, considerably inferior to the Ninurta, especially in terms of drive endurance. Although they were larger and more destructive, with better targeting systems and better defensive EW than anything which had been provided to the SLN, their acceleration rate and endurance were identical to the last flight Cataphract.

And technically that doesn't say Galton was denied them; only that Gail, who was running simulations of defense of "System Alpha" (which we know to be Galton), was denied them. But we didn't see them in the actual fight; so seems like Galton didn't get them in real life either.

But it's not clear on precisely what they are

So, same accel, but longer endurance. BIGGER laserhead--> no baffle CM drive.

Relax wrote:So, same accel, but longer endurance. BIGGER laserhead--> no baffle CM drive.

Sorry, the conclusion is unwarranted.

The passage is a little vague on first reading, but it's comparing the Galton Cataphracts against the SLN Cataphracts. It is saying that the missiles Gail was allowed were "improved versions of the Solarian League’s Cataphracts" and "although they were larger and more destructive, with better targeting systems and better defensive EW than anything which had been provided to the SLN, their acceleration rate and endurance were identical to the last flight Cataphract".

The comparison to the Ninurta is that those missiles are "considerably inferior to the Ninurta, especially in terms of drive endurance." It's possible that it's a 3-stage CM-CM-shipkiller which would thus have indeed longer endurance. It's also possible it's an extended-range DDM CM-shipkiller combo. Or, for all we know, it's a spider missile. But the implication is that it's instead a true MDM. We know the MAlign knows a lot about the GA tech, including the existence of mini fusion bottles, Mycroft, and Apollo, so they likely know about the existence of the baffle. The difficulty for them is obtaining a sample, replicating it, then setting up a production line.

It didn't take Haven long to do that, actually. The reason that the MAlign may have lacked access to the samples and the research from Haven is that Theisman was trying to hide it from the Manties in the first place and did all of that work in Bolthole. The Havenites weren't collaborating with the Sollies on this any more, so that must have curtailed the access the MAlign spies had.

As I said upthread as part of my "solution"(there were a LOT of posts) it is possible that MALIGN has a Pseudo baffle of sorts. They know of its existence.

The only way the Pseudo baffle works is if RFC/DW/1st space lord has simply ~forgotten about its existence and didn't BOTHER to mention it to the readers for consistency in his universe and wants there to be plenty of fodder for his forums

DW mentioned way back in IEH, it was quite possible to create a Giant missile with 85KPS^2 accel and longer endurance, but they would truly be GARGANTUAN and would essentially be trading out an entire pod of missiles for one such missile. For static defense this could be possible. We saw them as far back as HorQ. We saw such missiles again, well mentioned again, in EoH, so its not completely out of the wide blue blue sky.

But in ship carrying form? Nope. Of course we also now have RD drives more than capable of 20,000G with ~infinite endurance so why bother with missiles? Just show up with a pile of freighters(effectively free), dump these buggers out and fire from beyond the hyper limit. Who cares about size, we are told essentially material and energy(power for refining//assembly) is effectively free. We are told that even though Manticore etc had Billions of people, a mere ~million made everything during a DO or DIE wartime footing At those ratio's you can easily 1000X that manufacturing base manpower required for gargantuan RD/Missile combo and to Hell with the entire series of tech progression so far and the reasons carefully shepherded along in the series.

When DW said his missile bag o' tricks is used for plot reasons
--> He wasn't lying.

As I have said before, I'm in awe of how well RFC has built a consistent universe from his initial OBS novel. A universe with its own physics that hangs together, even under the incessant scrutiny of those on here.
There does appear to be some questions of course.
As you imply, Manticore hardly seems to be transitioning to a war time economy. One estimate is that in OTL Russia has 27% of its GDP allocated to try and defeat a smaller neighbour. The UK in WW2 had similar levels.
With the technology as shown, energy and materials are essentially free, so constraints as we envisage shouldn't exist. As discussed, a current rocket in OTL might achieve 20 minutes at 8 G for 10,000 tons, while in the Honorverse a 6MT SD(P) can maintain 500 G indefinitely.
Then, we already have better AIs than they do.
Not criticisms, just observations.

Relax wrote:As I said upthread as part of my "solution"(there were a LOT of posts) it is possible that MALIGN has a Pseudo baffle of sorts. They know of its existence.

The only way the Pseudo baffle works is if RFC/DW/1st space lord has simply ~forgotten about its existence and didn't BOTHER to mention it to the readers for consistency in his universe and wants there to be plenty of fodder for his forums

DW mentioned way back in IEH, it was quite possible to create a Giant missile with 85KPS^2 accel and longer endurance, but they would truly be GARGANTUAN and would essentially be trading out an entire pod of missiles for one such missile. For static defense this could be possible. We saw them as far back as HorQ. We saw such missiles again, well mentioned again, in EoH, so its not completely out of the wide blue blue sky.

But in ship carrying form? Nope. Of course we also now have RD drives more than capable of 20,000G with ~infinite endurance so why bother with missiles? Just show up with a pile of freighters(effectively free), dump these buggers out and fire from beyond the hyper limit. Who cares about size, we are told essentially material and energy(power for refining//assembly) is effectively free. We are told that even though Manticore etc had Billions of people, a mere ~million made everything during a DO or DIE wartime footing At those ratio's you can easily 1000X that manufacturing base manpower required for gargantuan RD/Missile combo and to Hell with the entire series of tech progression so far and the reasons carefully shepherded along in the series.

When DW said his missile bag o' tricks is used for plot reasons
--> He wasn't lying.