1926 PD - Idaho Ascendant

It does occur that the RMN is downsizing their fleet and since Idaho is an ally (if a minor one) the RMN might be quite willing to allow many personnel who would otherwise be downsized to instead go on loan to the newly expanded Idaho navy (as long as Idaho can cover their salary and expenses).

If Idaho can afford that it'd really help on the personnel side; though they'd still need plenty of local citizen enlisting and getting trained. Eventually those locals will need to take over all the roles; but long term loaners can ease that transition. (And some might well chose to immigrate and remain in the Idaho navy)

Sorry for previous post VERY poor typing(reread it and it is abysmal)

Not so sure the RMN personnel will be present.

Manticore/RMN just got "downsized" by millions during Oyster Bay.

With wars end, will not need as many forts in Manticore, or SD's, but this effectively balances out the massive loses in Oyster Bay. Downsizing of SD's is not necessarily true until they find those secret stealth ships and Beowulf is mother naked currently in heart of SL space. SL who doesn't exactly LIKE you right this minute so. Like after WWII, for YEARS(decades) USA STILL had millions of men stationed in France(short term), Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain(they were fascist too) I do not see numbers of personnel required shrinking anytime soon. In fact, I see it INCREASING as RMN/RHN/IAN/MAYA~Erewhoon responsibilities are increasing not decreasing since Frontier Fleet was axed. Thousands of new DD/CL ships are now required by our gallant heroes. RMN not sole responsibility but how that shakes out... <<shrugs on plot armor>>

RMN merchant marine needs their personnel back. Remember LARGE numbers of personnel came from MM area to begin with. No merchant marine, no $$$. They need $$$ for those expanding responsibilities.

RMN responsibilities have MASSIVELY increased in Beowulf and sister systems, Silesia/Talbott etc, and now a multitude of wormhole junctions which they took. Responsibility downsizing? Nope. Increased.

Idaho is yet MORE of said responsibilities. So, transfer of personnel? Yes. A fort or 3 on the wormhole junction? Seems likely. In Idaho itself? Nope. Unless Idaho regional prospects for power projection justify more naval presence.

As for TheEmiles previous question about Kammerling style CL's. How integrated into Manticore alliance commitments are they? To be Kammerling level this equates to Talbott cluster level of commitment yet are an independent system. It is possible.

PS: Anyone else think future DD, would just make one of their boat bays customizable for more marines, displacing the huge number of RD"s when out on patrol instead acting as eyes ears of the fleet? Each RD is 250 tons. 250 tons is size of a a350 or ~ Size of Condor Pinnace or nearly so... A DD when in fleet roles do not need the Marines. In fleet role, if DD's are providing the marines, something has DRASTICALLY Fit the Shan.

Relax wrote:PS: Anyone else think future DD, would just make one of their boat bays customizable for more marines, displacing the huge number of RD"s when out on patrol instead acting as eyes ears of the fleet? Each RD is 250 tons. 250 tons is size of a a350 or ~ Size of Condor Pinnace or nearly so... A DD when in fleet roles do not need the Marines. In fleet role, if DD's are providing the marines, something has DRASTICALLY Fit the Shan.

I'm not so sure that the RMN would agree that a DD on detached duty would have less need for lots of RDs.

But setting that aside this might be a bit bigger project than you were envisioning -- though not impossible.

Normally the boat bays aren't pressurized - in fact in the few drawing or renderings we have RMN ships don't even seem to have hatches to close off the boat bay from space. They're just a large opening in the underside of the ship with docking cradles and buffers to hold small craft in place so supply umbilicals can be connected, and the pressurized docking tubes running from the small craft to the (pressurized) boat bay gallery.

See EoH contrasting how the design of the LAC bays dramatically reduces to amount of maintenance time must be spent in vacuum, where describing maintaining assault shuttles in a normal warship: "like every other shuttle maintenance specialist, it seemed as if he'd spent about a third of his on-duty time in a skinsuit or a hardsuit floating around in the zero-gee vacuum of a boat bay while he pulled hull maintenance on one or another of the small craft under his care" [EoH]

And best I recall from one of the drawings the RDs are just sitting in racks, in vacuum, off to the side of the bay. Though IIRC there is an adjacent pressurized (or at least pressurizable) maintenance room so you can move an RD in there to work on it in a shirt-sleeve environment.

So changing RD storage into something that could be quickly converted to additional habitable space would be a significant change to current RMN design practices. (Though like I said at the beginning, not an impossible change)

Jonathan_S wrote:

Relax wrote:PS: Anyone else think future DD, would just make one of their boat bays customizable for more marines, displacing the huge number of RD"s when out on patrol instead acting as eyes ears of the fleet? Each RD is 250 tons. 250 tons is size of a a350 or ~ Size of Condor Pinnace or nearly so... A DD when in fleet roles do not need the Marines. In fleet role, if DD's are providing the marines, something has DRASTICALLY Fit the Shan.

I'm not so sure that the RMN would agree that a DD on detached duty would have less need for lots of RDs.

But setting that aside this might be a bit bigger project than you were envisioning -- though not impossible.

Normally the boat bays aren't pressurized - in fact in the few drawing or renderings we have RMN ships don't even seem to have hatches to close off the boat bay from space. They're just a large opening in the underside of the ship with docking cradles and buffers to hold small craft in place so supply umbilicals can be connected, and the pressurized docking tubes running from the small craft to the (pressurized) boat bay gallery.

See EoH contrasting how the design of the LAC bays dramatically reduces to amount of maintenance time must be spent in vacuum, where describing maintaining assault shuttles in a normal warship: "like every other shuttle maintenance specialist, it seemed as if he'd spent about a third of his on-duty time in a skinsuit or a hardsuit floating around in the zero-gee vacuum of a boat bay while he pulled hull maintenance on one or another of the small craft under his care" [EoH]

And best I recall from one of the drawings the RDs are just sitting in racks, in vacuum, off to the side of the bay. Though IIRC there is an adjacent pressurized (or at least pressurizable) maintenance room so you can move an RD in there to work on it in a shirt-sleeve environment.

So changing RD storage into something that could be quickly converted to additional habitable space would be a significant change to current RMN design practices. (Though like I said at the beginning, not an impossible change)

Uh, yes/no. In Enemy Hands defines a boat bay VERY succinctly. NO skin suits, they were prisoners after all... in a boat bay holding off the black leg peeps. Weapons lockers etc are there as well. Shuttles are sitting on the deck everyone is walking around in atmo without skinsuits. Also said boat bay has 2 shuttles in it with MULTIPLE doors.

On the other hand we have multiple cases of swimming the umbilical from shuttle to boat bay in 0 G... so.... PLOT armor?

OR: boat bay could have 2 sets of doors?
1 with umbilical for quick access
2 with ENTIRE shuttle access, but takes longer to pump atmo.

PS: Modern RD's are 250 tons... working on them through an "access door" would mean a shuttle can do same thing so...

Jonathan_S wrote:Normally the boat bays aren't pressurized - in fact in the few drawing or renderings we have RMN ships don't even seem to have hatches to close off the boat bay from space. They're just a large opening in the underside of the ship with docking cradles and buffers to hold small craft in place so supply umbilicals can be connected, and the pressurized docking tubes running from the small craft to the (pressurized) boat bay gallery.

In the text of the books, the boat bay gallery can also referenced as the boat bay. Here is an example from The Honor of the Queen:

Chapter 5 wrote:“Admiral Yanakov will arrive in six minutes, Skipper,” Lieutenant Metzinger said suddenly, and Honor nodded. She pressed a button, and her command chair displays folded into their storage positions.
“I think it’s time you and I got down to the boat bay to join the Admiral and greet our guests, Exec.”
“Yes, Ma’am.” Andreas Venizelos climbed out of his own chair and joined her as she headed for the bridge lift.
“Mr. DuMorne, you have the watch.”

It sometimes reads as though the parking area and the gallery (where the boat bay officers work) were components of the overall boat bay.

Relax wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I'm not so sure that the RMN would agree that a DD on detached duty would have less need for lots of RDs.

But setting that aside this might be a bit bigger project than you were envisioning -- though not impossible.

Normally the boat bays aren't pressurized - in fact in the few drawing or renderings we have RMN ships don't even seem to have hatches to close off the boat bay from space. They're just a large opening in the underside of the ship with docking cradles and buffers to hold small craft in place so supply umbilicals can be connected, and the pressurized docking tubes running from the small craft to the (pressurized) boat bay gallery.

See EoH contrasting how the design of the LAC bays dramatically reduces to amount of maintenance time must be spent in vacuum, where describing maintaining assault shuttles in a normal warship: "like every other shuttle maintenance specialist, it seemed as if he'd spent about a third of his on-duty time in a skinsuit or a hardsuit floating around in the zero-gee vacuum of a boat bay while he pulled hull maintenance on one or another of the small craft under his care" [EoH]

And best I recall from one of the drawings the RDs are just sitting in racks, in vacuum, off to the side of the bay. Though IIRC there is an adjacent pressurized (or at least pressurizable) maintenance room so you can move an RD in there to work on it in a shirt-sleeve environment.

So changing RD storage into something that could be quickly converted to additional habitable space would be a significant change to current RMN design practices. (Though like I said at the beginning, not an impossible change)

Uh, yes/no. In Enemy Hands defines a boat bay VERY succinctly. NO skin suits, they were prisoners after all... in a boat bay holding off the black leg peeps. Weapons lockers etc are there as well. Shuttles are sitting on the deck everyone is walking around in atmo without skinsuits. Also said boat bay has 2 shuttles in it with MULTIPLE doors.

On the other hand we have multiple cases of swimming the umbilical from shuttle to boat bay in 0 G... so.... PLOT armor?

OR: boat bay could have 2 sets of doors?
1 with umbilical for quick access
2 with ENTIRE shuttle access, but takes longer to pump atmo.

PS: Modern RD's are 250 tons... working on them through an "access door" would mean a shuttle can do same thing so...

I reread that section before posting - but had decided not to put a big digression about it in my post (as they already tend to run long)

I see a few possibilities.

1) The Peeps have all their boat bays as pressurized environments - so their less trained/skilled crews don't have to deal with pulling maintenance in a skin suit. (That probably imposed a cost/size/mass penalty compared to RMN style open bays; but they might consider it worth it)

2) Even if normal Peep boat bays are RMN style, and permanently open to space, the boat bay that Honor's escapees seem to have appropriated was one of the additional ones retrofit into Tepes's broadsides to give the StateSec BC the ground assault capability of an SD. Given that unusual placement they might have opted to make just those broadside bays into pressurized environments.

3) RFC didn't want to keep saying "gallery" the dozen or so times he talked about the fight in the boat bay; but the bay might actually have been in vacuum but the fight at the lifts was in the pressurized gallery not out among the small craft themselves.
Minor evidence in support of this possibility that is that non of the escapees were using the armored assault shuttles for cover when engaging the attacks through the lift shafts. That implies there was some reason that they couldn't; because they'd have been at a lot less risk than the firefight described if they could have been mostly behind armor. And it does say at one point that "since they couldn't use the lift car itself, they'd come down the shaft and tried to blow the doors into the gallery" (so at least some of the fight is in the gallery; not the boat bay itself)
And the pressurized docking tubes would have let the escapees into the assault shuttles to raid their arms lockers, and later retreat into them to leave. You don't need skinsuits to board small craft in a vacuum exposed bay -- only to perform exterior maintenance on them.

Jonathan_S wrote:3) RFC didn't want to keep saying "gallery" the dozen or so times he talked about the fight in the boat bay; but the bay might actually have been in vacuum but the fight at the lifts was in the pressurized gallery not out among the small craft themselves.

I believe that this is correct; not just for the author, but also for the people in the story that do not want the additional effort to say "gallery" to indicate that they will be in the pressurized area. It may be, as I said before, that they do not separate the two areas in normal talk.

Here is a conversation from In Enemy Hands that illustrates this point:

Chapter 16 wrote:"Look," McKeon said now, still careful to keep his voice low, "you're not the only one who's going to die if we lose pressure here." He twitched his head at Venizelos and LaFollet, who were busy ignoring the conversation. "They're not suited up, either."
Something flickered in those dark brown eyes, and Honor turned to look at her subordinates. LaFollet seemed to feel her gaze, for he looked up and met it levelly, and her eyes flicked back to McKeon.
"You fight dirty," she said softly, an edge of steel in her voice, and he shrugged.
"So sue me."
She regarded him for several silent seconds, then cleared her throat.
"Andy, take Andrew and go below and join the others," she said crisply.
Venizelos turned quickly, and his expression indicated both that he'd anticipated her order and that he didn't much like it.
"I assume you'll be joining us, Milady," he said flatly. It wasn't a question, and Honor's lips thinned.
"You may assume whatever you wish to assume, Commander. But you'll do your assuming in the boat bay gallery in a rescue suit."
"With all due respect, Commodore Harrington, I believe my place is here," Venizelos replied. Honor's eyes hardened and she started to speak harshly, then paused and visibly got a grip on her temper.
"I understand that, Andy," she said much more quietly, "but there's nothing at all you can do here, and there's no point in both of us being pigheaded."
Despite the tension in the air, amusement flickered in Venizelos' eyes at the word "both," but he showed no sign of retreating.
"You're right there, Ma'am. That's why I feel you should join the rest of us in the boat bay."
"I'm sure you do," Honor replied evenly, "but there is a difference between us, you know." One of Venizelos' eyebrows arched, and she smiled with bleak humor. "You're a commander, and I'm a commodore. That means I can order you to go."
"I—" Venizelos began, but her raised hand cut him off in midbreath. It wasn't an arrogant gesture, or a dismissive one, yet its finality was impossible to disobey.
"I'm serious, Andy. Whatever Captain McKeon may believe, I need to be here. This ship is part of my squadron, and her current position is the result of my orders. But you don't need to be here, and you're going to the boat bay right now."

Note that the same place is called both "boat bay" and "boat bay gallery".

It actually should not be necessary to specify the gallery when talking about going to the boat bay, because very few people will ever work in the unpressurized area. Almost all living beings will confine themselves to the area with breathable air.

A number of Manticore Merchant shipping were lost at Beowulf as they were part of the counter missile defense of the habitats and fabrication stations. Basically their wedges were giant shields but some of them took missile hits and, if not destroyed, would need a lot of repair work.

Not clear how many of the idled MMM ships which were in the Binary System at the time of Oyster
Bay were hit or even targeted by the Allignments weapons packages. Don't recall any of them mentioned other than ships already docked at the stations like liners. It would depend a lot on where Astro Control (and the Navy) would have parked them to keep the normal working areas and approach vectors or parking slots clear in normal course of business. Oh the other hand, it is POSSIBLE that a large number of them might have been parked relative to the warehouse and service station out "near" the Junction as there is a lot of space (literally) available and any that would be needing to transship cargo would need the transfer stations capacity if they were forwarding cargo they had carried back to Manticore (under the recall order) on n0n-Manticoure flagged hulls back into the League etc. Those ships, particularly if they retained cargo onboard, would have at least skeleton crews. We just don't know.
We also don't know if (probably but not mentioned) if the League was "directed" not to take any fines or other actions against MMM shipping which did comply with the LEGAL ORDER to return to Manticorian Space under Lagoon I. Remember, the League and a lot of other places is still very short of available commercial hulls to move good. And that was further aggravated by the TUFF orders that took various SL flagged cargo ships to operate as ammunition ships for the SLN- and then lost them in combat.

Manticore, even as it labors to rebuild it's manufacturing base, has got to require a lot of the volume of cargo with the former League area to help recover it's economy.

Idaho may have a closer relationship with Manticore, but given the potential for problems of warlordism and just attempted grabs for potentially lucrative targets (the other end of the Idaho bridge) Manticore could find it worthwhile to help build out the local SDFs of both with Early generation LACs and DDs that it would -potentially- be replacing with new-build ships in the next design groups. Yes, they are going to need help bringing their SDFs up to competence on the "older" DD, but with time and training help they can be able to keep off much of the potential lower level adventures. It's not likely people are going to be fielding ex-Frontier Fleet BC and cruisers in the near term and if things are looking like they might get hairy RMN could start sending commerce protection units though on patrol and exercising with the local SDFs for practice.

Those MMM ships that have hit a wall with loss of income might find partnership interest in places like Idaho and it's bridge partner that would want to invest in shares of merchant shipping as a way to build income.

Brigade XO wrote:A number of Manticore Merchant shipping were lost at Beowulf as they were part of the counter missile defense of the habitats and fabrication stations. Basically their wedges were giant shields but some of them took missile hits and, if not destroyed, would need a lot of repair work.

I don't remember those being Manticore ships. They were merchants and tugs, but I thought they were Beowulfan. More importantly, because they were merchants and tugs, the missiles wouldn't have actively targeted them. The next time, they might, but for this first time the SLN planners hadn't thought of programming the missiles to attack the interposed wedges.

Not clear how many of the idled MMM ships which were in the Binary System at the time of Oyster
Bay were hit or even targeted by the Allignments weapons packages. Don't recall any of them mentioned other than ships already docked at the stations like liners. It would depend a lot on where Astro Control (and the Navy) would have parked them to keep the normal working areas and approach vectors or parking slots clear in normal course of business. Oh the other hand, it is POSSIBLE that a large number of them might have been parked relative to the warehouse and service station out "near" the Junction as there is a lot of space (literally) available and any that would be needing to transship cargo would need the transfer stations capacity if they were forwarding cargo they had carried back to Manticore (under the recall order) on n0n-Manticoure flagged hulls back into the League etc. Those ships, particularly if they retained cargo onboard, would have at least skeleton crews. We just don't know.

Actually, we do: very few MMM ships were in the MBS at that time in the first place. Case Lacoön hadn't been declared yet and wouldn't be for another month or so.

Remember the timeline: Tenth Fleet and Adm. Gold Peak had been given Apollo missiles for the Talbott Quadrant, which they used against Sandra Crandall's formation. This only happened because the infrastructure in the MBS was intact and churning Apollos at full speed. Case Lacoön was declared after the Battle of Spindle.

Further, the MAlign didn't have enough weapons to target dispersed targets like merchant ships that would have been all over the place, especially not if they were at the Junction. And since Case Lacoön hadn't been declared, the MAN planners wouldn't have planned for attacking the relatively few merchant ships that would have been around, especially if that meant not attacking a legitimate warship.

We also don't know if (probably but not mentioned) if the League was "directed" not to take any fines or other actions against MMM shipping which did comply with the LEGAL ORDER to return to Manticorian Space under Lagoon I. Remember, the League and a lot of other places is still very short of available commercial hulls to move good. And that was further aggravated by the TUFF orders that took various SL flagged cargo ships to operate as ammunition ships for the SLN- and then lost them in combat.

Given that the order was legal, those systems' only option would be to boycott the MMM when they became available again. They don't have a recourse to extracting money from the merchant companies headquartered on Manticore. I don't think impounding cargo if those ships visited again would be well received by the companies who owned that cargo, or the intended destinations. They may attempt to impound the ship instead, but that would invite a visit from a Manticoran negotiator and a potential blacklisting by the MMM later. It's probably worse financially.

And given that the SLN's TUFT did happen too, there isn't much of a legal justification.

Manticore, even as it labors to rebuild it's manufacturing base, has got to require a lot of the volume of cargo with the former League area to help recover it's economy.

The advantage of the MMM remains: discounted prices through the Manticore wormhole network. In fact, with the discovery of the Lynx terminus and the seizure of the Mesa-Visigoth warp bridge, it's probably only become an even bigger advantage. I'm assuming the Idaho wormhole was already part of the network.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:A number of Manticore Merchant shipping were lost at Beowulf as they were part of the counter missile defense of the habitats and fabrication stations. Basically their wedges were giant shields but some of them took missile hits and, if not destroyed, would need a lot of repair work.

I don't remember those being Manticore ships. They were merchants and tugs, but I thought they were Beowulfan. More importantly, because they were merchants and tugs, the missiles wouldn't have actively targeted them. The next time, they might, but for this first time the SLN planners hadn't thought of programming the missiles to attack the interposed wedges.

<snip>

Early in the series, The defensive device of a Wedge Buoy was mentioned - it is a set of SD sized nodes with a fusion plant kept in the final state of wedge activation. A field of these is kept in formation near important facilities and will turn on their wedges like scale armor to defend the site.

I don't know why these disappeared and freighters needed to be used instead.