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Friends Indeed

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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Aug 14, 2024 9:42 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:That said, while ‘lost Alpha’ is a good shorthand explanation of why Honor is so very exceptional, it does create a major plot hole for the Star Kingdom series. Which is, that anyone researching treecats finds out that the first bonded human was a Stephanie Harrington

Yeah, Sphinx at this point was a howling wilderness in the middle of nowhere, but academics and con-men are still making the voyage. Those treecats are valuable enough to trek out to said howling wilderness.

But despite this, the Harrington Alpha line is ‘lost’.


"Lost" does not necessarily mean that they didn't know about it. It may simply mean it was lost to them, because the LRPB could not control the genetic drift and add their biological distinctivenesses to their own. The Harringtons aren't trying to hide; they're just trying not to be in the spotlight of the early Kingdom. At this point, if she wanted to, Stephanie would be a celebrity. So if the MAlign wanted to, they could still trace what happened to the descendants of their Alpha lines -- they clearly had done that by 1922.

In terms of the detective story, I’m in agreement that Richard and Marjorie are going to die at some point in the series. Stephanie discovering her parents fled Meyerdahl because they belonged to a harmless society for better acceptance of genies - which turns out to be not-so-harmless- could be the link between the two series.


That's an interesting plot, yes.

I don't think they fled anything, though. If they had done that, it's likely they'd have told her by now. She was 17 by the end of the last book, so old enough to understand and they'd have needed to explain that there was something in their past. In particular, if this is informing their general stance on not being in the public eye, they need to explain it to her to continue so.

And this hasn't happened, nor does it look like they're going out of their way to remain unknowns. We're told that "lost lines" often happen because the contact with Mesa skips a generation, so the Richard and Marjorie may be that generation. They may have been part of a society on Meyerdahl that for all they really knew was harmless. Though I should point out that Meyerdahl is a heavy-gravity world, so the majority of its population is made of genies in the first place. You wouldn't need a society for this... it kind of sounds like government policy.

Another note: we shouldn't assume it was Richard Harrington's parents that were the Mesan line just because of the surname. It might have been Marjorie's and whatever her maiden surname was. The MAlign can't be that stupid that they'd lose track of some progeny because some married woman decided to adopt her husband's name. Don't forget Honor is now Alexander-Harrington and that's not confusing them! It's not like she put on a pair of glasses and became Clark Kent.


And yes, Tennessee Bolego might reappear.


(Thanks for correcting his first name)

According to ToH, he reappeared to champion for the Ninth Amendment. But that may have been the highlight of his rehabilitation, something that the Bolgeo family would tell. Earlier exploits between his attempt to kidnap treecats and the passage of the Amendment may not have been significant enough. Or dismissed out of hand, like the one time he helped Stephanie Harrington fight off a centuries-long conspiracy!
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Aug 15, 2024 6:24 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Given the trip times at the time, it's possible this is when the opportunity arose and the ship was going to be at Meyerdahl.

That was my thought. The Harringtons had applied but did not know for sure when the ship would arrive to transport them. It’s possibly that there was no regular shipping (or at least passenger carrying shipping) between Meyerdahl and Mativore and so a special charter had to be arranged to pick up the colonists.

It might well have been a situation of “you’ve been accepted and expect to depart anytime over the next couple years”. Then the ship they’ll be on comes over the hyper limit, transmits its messages and now it’s “you’re leaving next week”. There’s no way to send messages faster than ships and ships were slower and less numerous back then. So you might easily not get advanced notice. But you can’t put your life on hold indefinitely so you play the odds and let your kid do their thing. (But 11 year olds aren’t always the most reasonable; and Stephanie might have been focused on her desires to the point of dismissing any chance something would prevent them)

Heck, if colonists had to get final approval centrally the ship that carried the Harringtons to Manticore might also have carried their acceptance paperwork. So they’d go from “applied and passed initial local screening” to “approved and leaving next week” all at once.
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Aug 15, 2024 4:35 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Given the trip times at the time, it's possible this is when the opportunity arose and the ship was going to be at Meyerdahl.

That was my thought. The Harringtons had applied but did not know for sure when the ship would arrive to transport them. It’s possibly that there was no regular shipping (or at least passenger carrying shipping) between Meyerdahl and Mativore and so a special charter had to be arranged to pick up the colonists.

It might well have been a situation of “you’ve been accepted and expect to depart anytime over the next couple years”. Then the ship they’ll be on comes over the hyper limit, transmits its messages and now it’s “you’re leaving next week”. There’s no way to send messages faster than ships and ships were slower and less numerous back then. So you might easily not get advanced notice.


It's possible but I don't think that's the case. I think the Harringtons booked their own passage, so they knew when they were leaving. They weren't dependent on passage arranged by Manticore.

You're right that there weren't many passenger ships going to Manticore from the Core, but there were some. They probably had to connect somewhere (there may be a Newark system whose capital city is New New Jersey) where the ship that would take them to Manticore would leave from. And I assume that this is in somewhat regular schedule. It may be a multi-stop journey where they had to get to Haven before transferring back to Manticore.

That doesn't invalidate the other reasons.

But you can’t put your life on hold indefinitely so you play the odds and let your kid do their thing. (But 11 year olds aren’t always the most reasonable; and Stephanie might have been focused on her desires to the point of dismissing any chance something would prevent them)

Heck, if colonists had to get final approval centrally the ship that carried the Harringtons to Manticore might also have carried their acceptance paperwork. So they’d go from “applied and passed initial local screening” to “approved and leaving next week” all at once.


Mail is as fast as the ships that take them, but electronic mail doesn't need to come through a single route, much less a direct one. That means it arrives as the fastest route could take them. Let's say for example that Manticore has regular freight shipping to Haven and Haven has to Meyerdahl: that means the first ship connection could take that mail, even if they are not passenger ships. And if the Haven-Meyerdahl ship is delayed for some reason, the Haven-Beowulf ship could take it and thence some other ship would take to Meyerdahl.
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by richardinor   » Fri Aug 23, 2024 4:34 pm

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I just listened to David Weber’s second interview on the Honorverse Today podcast. He stated that the Mason Alignment makes an appearances in this book.
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Aug 23, 2024 6:52 pm

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richardinor wrote:I just listened to David Weber’s second interview on the Honorverse Today podcast. He stated that the Mason Alignment makes an appearances in this book.


Can you share the link to the podcast?
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by richardinor   » Fri Aug 23, 2024 9:00 pm

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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Aug 25, 2024 8:57 pm

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The Harringtons have some very marketable skills that Manticore needs. With the Meyerdahl modifications -and they are already generally heavy worlders so have the basic physical ability to live "normally" on Sphinx. They also were able to pay part of the cost of the trip rather than arrive with negligible personal assets. They got -if memory serves- 20 sq/km of homestead as part of the package they were able to put together. They were NOT part of original families in the system and so not apparently eligible to be included in the step to the nobility to ensure the initial position post -plague of the original colonists families. Those original families also also had considerably larger holding in either land or things such as blocks of astroid belts or EM frequency ranges as the basis for wealth accumulation staring that X amount.
The more was initially presented in A Beautiful Friendship as a chance to take a major step in career and ability to improve their lives.
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by Daryl   » Mon Aug 26, 2024 2:56 am

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I like to relate situations in the Honorverse to OTL.
Imagine how rich someone now would be with 20 sq kms (5,000 acres) of virgin forest, allied with almost free energy?
Along with the ability to bring in off farm income from professional qualificattions.
Brigade XO wrote:The Harringtons have some very marketable skills that Manticore needs. With the Meyerdahl modifications -and they are already generally heavy worlders so have the basic physical ability to live "normally" on Sphinx. They also were able to pay part of the cost of the trip rather than arrive with negligible personal assets. They got -if memory serves- 20 sq/km of homestead as part of the package they were able to put together. They were NOT part of original families in the system and so not apparently eligible to be included in the step to the nobility to ensure the initial position post -plague of the original colonists families. Those original families also also had considerably larger holding in either land or things such as blocks of astroid belts or EM frequency ranges as the basis for wealth accumulation staring that X amount.
The more was initially presented in A Beautiful Friendship as a chance to take a major step in career and ability to improve their lives.
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by jgnfld   » Wed Sep 18, 2024 1:59 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:"Again, an Alpha line with an entirely legitimate title of nobility would be very useful to the Alignment."


Given what "hollow" sociopathic human traits are manifest in the phenotypes the Detweilers appear to select and train for inside their Alpha lines as a result of their breeding programs, I can think of a better candidate line in the Manticorn nobility actually!
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Sep 18, 2024 1:29 pm

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jgnfld wrote:Given what "hollow" sociopathic human traits are manifest in the phenotypes the Detweilers appear to select and train for inside their Alpha lines as a result of their breeding programs, I can think of a better candidate line in the Manticorn nobility actually!


"A" better candidate? I can think of several!

The MAlign lucked out on several useful idiots in both Manticore and Haven, like Giancola, New Kiev, High Ridge, Descroix. Their "investment" on the slave who became Elaine Komandorski paid out several times over. Imagine if they had actually tried to insert an agent instead.
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