1926 PD - Export hardware

In 1926pd, what type of hardware should the Grand Alliance be offering to Jr. alliance members to rebuild their navies? What about non-alliance members (Like former OFS protectorates)?

Assume all alliance (and allied) hardware is in the conversation for contention(but not necessarily being offered), and that the hardware will not necessarily be constructed in 1926pd (That's just the date on the Catalog - Let's call it "Naval Christmas Wish Book - 1926pd"). The hardware won't necessarily be built by Manticore, but Manticore will be backing the production, delivery and financing.

Points for naval sustainability - cohesive families of parts/missile commonality.

What would you - (The Alliance head of Export Procurement) offer an Idaho? How about a Zunker?

And, of course, Why would you offer this hardware for each requestee? Should more or less be offered? Should partial funding be done by the Alliance to help stabilize the Galaxy?

ERMs - Mk14 CA grade, Mk36 DD/CL grade seem reasonable.

Any MDM is more questionable as the "baffle" that is the true secret to them still isn't known outside the Grand Alliance.

For CMs I'm not sure if they'd want to release the full Mk31 though it's not as big a tech givaway - being basically just an ERM version of the Mk30. And the MAlign at least seams to have cracked ERM and ERM CM tech.

I think microfusion and FTL fire control are totally off the table. (So no ghost rider drones, no Mk16 DDMs, no MK23 or Mk23E, nor Keyhole II and definitely not Mycroft).

FTL comms are likely also off the table because reverse engineering them gives too much of a leg up on making your own FTL fire control.

Depending on how good a minor ally Keyhole (I) or the BC level Keyhole I lite might be on the table. There's nothing super secret about that - once you have missiles with software and hardware capable of handling off-axis fire.

Without MDMs there's not much point to offering an export grade non-FTL Moriarty-style pod-based system defense.

Energy mounts should be unrestricted -- everybody's is about as good so no need to be precious. Pretty much the same for PDLCs.

Automation should be pretty exportable.

ECM and decoys are probably going to be dialed back a fair bit. Not so much on the hardware side (except for no free flying microfusion powered ones) but in terms of the software.
Manticore wouldn't want samples of its current front-line programs out where they might get stolen by their enemies -- which would give them too much of a leg up on overcoming those non-kinetic defenses.

Some level of improved compensator is likely on the table - that's now almost a 20 year old tech. But probably the very latest generations aren't up for export except to very significant allies.

Export versions of the Shrikes and Ferrets are likely on the table; which means Beta-squared nodes and bow/stern walls. But they'll probably strip out the FTL comms capability from the export Beta-Squared nodes. Not sure if the Viper (and thus the Katana) would be on the table or not. And the dragon's teeth decoys might be off the table; even in their LAC burst form. But dazzler jammers should be fine for export.

Bow and Stern walls should be exportable. Not so sure about buckler walls though.

With some refitting CAs up to Sag-Bs should be exportable, as should Avalons and Wolfhounds. If someone wants them Reliant-class BCs are probably exportable. But at the moment the RMN doesn't really have a semi-modern export grade BC -- they never built a proper ERM equipped counterpart to the Sag-B. Instead jumping straight to BC(P)s firing longer ranged MDM/DDMs. There's no reason they couldn't build a ERM equipped BC design -- somewhere between a modernized Reliant and a scaled back Nike. Or they could make pods for ERMs and an export-grade BC(P).

And of course if they just want older SDM designs then those should be available for export in liue of going to the breakers -- though even there you might need to downgrade the ECM programs and strip out FTL comms.


Edit: thought of another thing that's likely export restricted -- the improved laserhead grav focusing; like the Mod-G series of warheads.

Jonathan_S wrote:<snip> If someone wants them Reliant-class BCs are probably exportable. But at the moment the RMN doesn't really have a semi-modern export grade BC -- they never built a proper ERM equipped counterpart to the Sag-B. Instead jumping straight to BC(P)s firing longer ranged MDM/DDMs. There's no reason they couldn't build a ERM equipped BC design -- somewhere between a modernized Reliant and a scaled back Nike. Or they could make pods for ERMs and an export-grade BC(P).

<snip>

I think (and I have not seen any backup to confirm this, so I can't be certain), that the Flight 3/4 Reliants were EDM designs. We know they are larger then the earlier designs, and 4? squadrons were laid down in 1919 as emergency construction along side Sag-Bs and Avalons - why build more of a completely outdated design without EDMs? So, I'm going to say that that "modernized" ERM Reliant design exists.

Maya/Erewhon already have a EDM pod and BC(p) design, So it may be a good alternative.

Interesting thread!

No SDs.

Why would ships with the accel advantage be on the list?

penny wrote:Interesting thread!

No SDs.

Why would ships with the accel advantage be on the list?

Which list? The list of export restricted or the list of potentially exportable?

I think some level of improved accel should be on the export list because that's part of what makes their LACs useful; and Manticore likes minor systems using LACs for much of their system defense. (Cheap, can provide a lot of coverage for a given amount of manpower, powerful enough to beat up pirate or small raiders)

And improved accel has been around for almost 20 years now with steadily improving performance; so there's lots of room to offer allies better accel than legacy platforms without giving away your current top of the line performance.


As for SDs. It's kind of hard for me to visualize an ally that's important enough that Manticore is willing to supply them ships of the line - while being unimportant enough not to get really modern ones. And most minor systems simply can't afford to buy, or even to operate, SDs. They'll need sometime cheaper for their system defense.

But, I guess if you've got a cash buyer willing to pay for a custom design there's no particular reason you couldn't throw together a design for a capital grade ERM design (like Erewhon did) and a then an export SD armed with it -- whether tube firing or pod based. I just tend to doubt there's anybody out there who can afford it and which Manticore is willing to sell it to. (The League could certainly afford it, though they probably don't want to buy from Manticore and Manticore probably doesn't want to sell to them -- and they'd presumably want something armed with their version of the Cataphract anyway)

Jonathan_S wrote:<snip>

As for SDs. It's kind of hard for me to visualize an ally that's important enough that Manticore is willing to supply them ships of the line - while being unimportant enough not to get really modern ones. And most minor systems simply can't afford to buy, or even to operate, SDs. They'll need sometime cheaper for their system defense.

But, I guess if you've got a cash buyer willing to pay for a custom design there's no particular reason you couldn't throw together a design for a capital grade ERM design (like Erewhon did) and a then an export SD armed with it -- whether tube firing or pod based. I just tend to doubt there's anybody out there who can afford it and which Manticore is willing to sell it to. (The League could certainly afford it, though they probably don't want to buy from Manticore and Manticore probably doesn't want to sell to them -- and they'd presumably want something armed with their version of the Cataphract anyway)

More importantly, Who would Manticore trust enough to supply with SDs (which are primarily offensive weapons, not just a defensive ones) But do not trust enough to give A full Alliance weapons kit? You don't give someone something like an SD (or 10) if you don't trust them to watch your back - And why would you give someone something that you don't want protecting your back. (ie, you wouldn't give a fumbling idiot a hand grenade, and you wouldn't give a veteran soldier a grenade where you didn't trust the fuse.)

There are probably polities which fall in that category, but very few, and fewer still that can afford and man such a fleet.

Theemile wrote:More importantly, Who would Manticore trust enough to supply with SDs (which are primarily offensive weapons, not just a defensive ones) But do not trust enough to give A full Alliance weapons kit? You don't give someone something like an SD (or 10) if you don't trust them to watch your back - And why would you give someone something that you don't want protecting your back. (ie, you wouldn't give a fumbling idiot a hand grenade, and you wouldn't give a veteran soldier a grenade where you didn't trust the fuse.)

There are probably polities which fall in that category, but very few, and fewer still that can afford and man such a fleet.

Because of automation, an Invictus is probably cheaper to operate than a Gryphon, assuming you're not in a shooting war and using your missile load out.

So while I don't expect MDMs (and especially not Apollo ones) to be on the export list in 1926, I think an export SD(P) will exist. We know Carlucci is producing that for the the ESN and the MARSN and we know that TIY is definitely going to produce that for the SLN. We've also seen that the Galton Navy had those. There's no secret about what an SD(P) is, it just takes time to design and build one. So I think the commercial concerns in the GA, like Hauptman, will want to get in the business of making those. There's no reason to leave the market to non-GA entities. Plus, the GA can become friends with and create good trade relationships with other systems in selling these.

We don't know when Hauptman would have started designing this. We know he had had access to military secrets for his passenger ships back in the inter-war period, so it is entirely possible he had been given some declassified or soon-to-be-declassified information on the design of the Medusas and Invictus (a.k.a. Honor Harrington class for both) so he could get started on the export versions. His company may not be the first -- that might be Carlucci -- but they shouldn't be far behind. And their design should be superior to CIS's because it would be based on real, proven warships instead of a new prototype.

Oh good you restarted the thread. Guess I derailed the old one

I think a closer discussion is WHO is an ally and who is an ally associate. Lets be fair, there are associate allies and then, associates. So, at least 3 levels. (Same reason Ukraine is getting some ordinance etc, but no one is bending over backwards for them)

You do not want hurt feelings(politics) so who gets what has to be tiered.

Ally gets the goods(already happening) so, RMN/GSN/IAN/RHN/Beowulf Zanzibar/Alizon/Erewhon? Is IAN really an ally? RHN? I can see them holding a couple things back no matter what Queen Elizabeth said. DoD Bueaucrats just "accidentally" misplaced certain orders... for years.

Here is the rub, IAN/RHN/Beowulf need 100% new fleets by and large(some more than others). This = thousands of ships freed up to send to Ally Associate such as Idaho. RHN/IAN can also replace their ships as their shipyards are still in tact. Associates, get the OLDER cast offs.

For system defense, Capacitor fed MDM pods seems a fair thing to send to Associate allies. Will need millions of them so. Fair game if you asked me. IAN/RHN have production lines of them up and running.

For upgrades to associate allies, retrofit bow/stern walls to old ships.

Relax wrote:For system defense, Capacitor fed MDM pods seems a fair thing to send to Associate allies.

As Jonathan_S said:

Any MDM is more questionable as the "baffle" that is the true secret to them still isn't known outside the Grand Alliance.

Perhaps system defense for those outside the Grand Alliance can be built with Cataphracts.

tlb wrote:

Relax wrote:For system defense, Capacitor fed MDM pods seems a fair thing to send to Associate allies.

As Jonathan_S said:

Any MDM is more questionable as the "baffle" that is the true secret to them still isn't known outside the Grand Alliance.

Perhaps system defense for those outside the Grand Alliance can be built with Cataphracts.

That's probably not unreasonable. After all, not only does the League already have their version of Cataphracts but Manticore should have captured those plans so would know just how to make them.

I'd originally been thinking that Manticore would like to limit the proliferation of such weapons; as they're far more of a threat to RMN units than ERMs would be. But the cat is probably well and truly out of the bag -- and at least Cataphracts wouldn't be exposing any tricks to the MAlign; should they get their hands on Manti export weapons.