1926 PD - Idaho Ascendant

To start things off, here is my order:

Assuming Manticore et al will not sell the latest hardware, As the Idahoan Grand Admiral, I would order:

Fixed assets:
8 forts, 4 for the planet and 4 for the wormhole.
Additional missile pods for each
a second LAC base for both the Planet and Wormhole
an additional LAC wing for each
Include Katanas in the order to balance all 4 wings

Mobile Forces:
2 BC(p)s.
lots of firepower in a small package, quick, easily deployable and able to back up any defensive force. In offence, an economical force that cannot be ignored. Easily upgradeable with modern pods, they will be a near-peer investment for 1/2 a century. Include Fleet flag facilities in both.

8 Sag-B CA
Long range firepower in a moderate sized package. Easily deployable and message sending. Is designed for pod use. Able to be used in groups or a single cruiser, and still project force. Able to respond to near peer threats for the next 20-25 years.

12-18 Wolfhounds DD or Avalon CLs (or mix)
Again, Long range firepower in a small package. Easily deployable, and able to punch above their weight. Is designed for pod use. Able to be used in groups with great force, or dispersed to cover a large volume. Able to respond to near peer threats for the next 20-25 years.

Support:
1 Repair station (planetary orbit)

1 repair ship
1 Ammo ship
or (preferably)
2 FSR

Somehow, it appears my reply killed the topic, so if someone can reply with the original post, it would be appreciated.

To Summarize, Build a navy for Idaho, the system 20 light years from Manticore, with a hyper bridge to Zunker. Times are good. Money is flowing, and Manticore has pulled the bulk of their defenses out, so leadership is worried.

Idaho has little merchant marine, little resource extraction infrastructure (now, but growing), the wormhole and 1 planet. Both the Wormhole and planet each have a 1 wing, scratch built LAC base protecting them, with a small shoal of old MDM pods. The Navy is 2 old DDs, and the Manty gifted early-gen Shrikes and Ferrets in the LAC bases.

The Navy needs to be sustainable, defend the major points in system, and to have a small expeditionary force to meet alliance needs, and put out potential fires in the former OFS areas on the other side of the wormhole.

Money is flowing, if you can prove the need, but not unlimited. Crew will need to be trained. The Alliance will build your hardware for you in short time.

What navy would you build?

Theemile wrote:Somehow, it appears my reply killed the topic, so if someone can reply with the original post, it would be appreciated.

To Summarize, Build a navy for Idaho, the system 20 light years from Manticore, with a hyper bridge to Zunker. Times are good. Money is flowing, and Manticore has pulled the bulk of their defenses out, so leadership is worried.

Idaho has little merchant marine, little resource extraction infrastructure (now, but growing), the wormhole and 1 planet. Both the Wormhole and planet each have a 1 wing, scratch built LAC base protecting them, with a small shoal of old MDM pods. The Navy is 2 old DDs, and the Manty gifted early-gen Shrikes and Ferrets in the LAC bases.

The Navy needs to be sustainable, defend the major points in system, and to have a small expeditionary force to meet alliance needs, and put out potential fires in the former OFS areas on the other side of the wormhole.

Money is flowing, if you can prove the need, but not unlimited. Crew will need to be trained. The Alliance will build your hardware for you in short time.

What navy would you build?

I'm not sure they can afford to acquire or operate what you've already sketched out.

that said the main issue I have with just two BC(P)s is that with only two ships its very hard to ensure that even one is always ready when you need it. (As the RN is demonstrating with their Queen Elizabeth class carriers). You generally need at least 3 to have reasonable assurance of one being deployable/deployed at all times.

So if you can't swing at least a third BC(P) you're probably better off ditching the pair of them for 3-5 more Sag-Bs and some more towed pods.

I'm also less convinced that Manticore would be willing to provide MDM pods to a more minor ally like Idaho. While Manticore, Haven, and the Andies have all figured out the baffle trick it still (as far as we, or their intel services, know) a secret from their enemies. And spreading that hardware around makes it easier for those enemies to get their hands on examples or the tech specs. (And I definitely can't see them being happy to let DDM or Mk23 out of their control, as the micro fusion plant is another major advantage they have)

Another issue is that Manticore seems unlikely to sell their current BC(P) designs - regardless of what types of pods they make available, as the current Aggies all carry scaled down Keyhole I -- a tech that they might not want to export. They might have to go back to the original original Agamemnon designs before they added the remote platform. (Though that should be straightforward enough)

(Of course, doctrinally, RMN BC(P)s carry DDMs and the RMN doesn't have a capacitor powered DDM. If they did release old capacitor powered MDM pods then the BC(P)s could carry those. Otherwise they'd probably have to quickly knock together a design for a pod carrying Mk14 ERMs -- which would at least give ammo compatibility between the BC(P)s and Sag-Bs)


Given that Idaho has no real need to project power outside their system I'd lean towards Wolfhounds over Avalons. Plus that'd help some with the cost.

Theemile wrote:Somehow, it appears my reply killed the topic, so if someone can reply with the original post, it would be appreciated.

You must have clicked on "Edit post", rather than "Reply with quote", and erased the original text thinking it was redundant. I do not know how else that could happen.

All I remember was a wormhole managed by Manticore and a booming economy because of trade with the Grand Alliance members. But if Manticore is managing the wormhole, then Idaho's most precious asset is already being guarded (particularly if they get Manticore to lease a base).

The key here is: NO merchant marine.
#1 they already have SOME infrastructure for repair etc.
Forts: Yes, but who is going to supply the missiles etc? Assuming RMN. They are NOT going to supply their best missiles here unless formal ally. Micro fusion bottles are one of THE key tech advantages they have. TTL is another. What software ECM support is going to be used? Just as important as the MDM/CM missiles.

That being said, if no merchant marine, no reason for BC'P/SAG-B. Forts can move assuming RMN will sell them at all. If one worries about pirates attacking asteroid belt for their mining, mine in giant batches for strategic reserve holding in orbit. --> Assuming they even have an asteroid belt and do not have to ship the minerals in from an outside source!

A small polity cannot guarantee support from outside source so any Military buy, they make in batches for part commonality so they can salvage parts from one platform into another. So, Wolfhounds = Yes, assuming RMN will sell them. Avalon? If RMN will sell them, though Why would they need them? has no merchant marine. DD for local Hyper ops, yes, anything else? Nope. Big step to requiring CA's.

Relax wrote:The key here is: NO merchant marine.
#1 they already have SOME infrastructure for repair etc.
Forts: Yes, but who is going to supply the missiles etc? Assuming RMN. They are NOT going to supply their best missiles here unless formal ally. Micro fusion bottles are one of THE key tech advantages they have. TTL is another. What software ECM support is going to be used? Just as important as the MDM/CM missiles.

That being said, if no merchant marine, no reason for BC'P/SAG-B. Forts can move assuming RMN will sell them at all. If one worries about pirates attacking asteroid belt for their mining, mine in giant batches for strategic reserve holding in orbit. --> Assuming they even have an asteroid belt and do not have to ship the minerals in from an outside source!

A small polity cannot guarantee support from outside source so any Military buy, they make in batches for part commonality so they can salvage parts from one platform into another. So, Wolfhounds = Yes, assuming RMN will sell them. Avalon? If RMN will sell them, though Why would they need them? has no merchant marine. DD for local Hyper ops, yes, anything else? Nope. Big step to requiring CA's.

My original lost post spelled out what we know - Idaho is part of the Manty alliance, Idaho had paid Manticore to survey the wormhole just prior to 1900pd, Manticore was managing the wormhole for Idaho as part of the greater Manty Wormhole network, and applying the same rules/cost structure to it a the rest of the Manty operated wormholes. Manticore had defended the system as part of the alliance, but with the wars coming to an end, Manty defense forces were going home. And this is where the speculation starts - Idaho leadership wanted to be able to have a small mobile force to support alliance commitments and project a small amount of power.

With OFS gone, Zunker and the systems near it were free, but (in this scenario) the area was becoming a bit of a wild west, with long term stability issues. Idaho leadership wanted to be able to extend sufficient force to be able to put down small regional issues if necessary.

And your point is valid - if the force wants to be a defensive only force, the CAs and BCs are superfluous, and only a handful of DD/CLs are needed for hyper limit protection in combination with the LAC forces. However, if they determine they want to be able to extend their ability and support the area on the other side of the wormhole (and be an active part of the alliance), heaver hardware is required.

Your point about sustainability and commonality is good reasoning. If a handful of CAs are required, might it make sense to use something based on the Kamerling (System control CL) design, over the larger (and more capable) Sag-B to work in concert with Wolfhounds/Avalons?

If BC(p)s and Sag-Bs feature heavily in the navy design, Maya/Erewhon produces EDM pods intended for their BC podlayer - perhaps that could be the source of the BC(p) and pods? Perhaps shift the Wolfhound/Avalon to the Warrior DD/Marksman CL designs for missile commonality?

Theemile wrote:What navy would you build?

I'd contact Carlucci Industries in the Erewhon system and see if they want to set up a branch in Idaho and build ships. The designs they'd been building for Erewhon and Maya would be very good for Idaho too and would also give them scale, amortising the costs of R&D. Erewhon, like Idaho, has a wormhole too.

And I'd contact Klaus Hauptman and see if he wants to go into competition with Carlucci. I can't think he hasn't thought of that yet, so being the launch customer would be interesting. Idaho would be able to judge the best of the two offers and get the best deal, which may include some tech transfer packages for the long-term.

Looking again at the ESN, I think Idaho will need capital ships. At this point, even though it hasn't been said, I assume they have some older SDs or at least DNs. Probably not as many as the ESN had before the first war, because Erewhon was much richer and knew about its wormhole for longer, but I'd expect that they had invested in a few capital ships to protect their system. A wormhole is too juicy a target to protect with just BCs.

To buy some temporary ones, until new CIS or Hauptman SDs come off the line, I'd see if Grayson or Beowulf want to offload some of their pre-pod ones. Grayson's units would have even the benefit of being ex-RMN units themselves, so if they're going for Hauptman and therefore Manticore tech, it would give them experience with that tech before the new ships. I do expect Beowulf and Manticore shared some tech up until the 1900s, so everything up to and including Gryphon, Reliant and Star Knight classes, but I also expect that the BSDF SDs were of Solarian design for the most part.

Theemile wrote: Idaho leadership wanted to be able to have a small mobile force to support alliance commitments and project a small amount of power.

Yes, this portion I bolded changes EVERYTHING. Let me think. Work is slow.

First thought is BCP is a step too far, CA/CL seems more realistic. Or Avalon/SAGB while 2 classes, represent ~roughly same tech base and part commonality, leaving out wolfhound. Or just go All In on CL's as a happy half way house. As for CL Kammerling, not sure how this would work and trying to think of an 19th century example here on earth.

PS: We have no idea about Idaho's infrastructure/population other than --> Ally close to Manticore with a wormhole to Zunker

Relax wrote:

Theemile wrote: Idaho leadership wanted to be able to have a small mobile force to support alliance commitments and project a small amount of power.

Yes, this portion I bolded changes EVERYTHING. Let me think. Work is slow.

Sorry, rambling: no time to edit: gotta go. Short answer: Avalalon equivalent CL's is their ceiling for local alliance commitment duties. A fort or 2 on terminus is true max from RHN/IAN + Merchant hull repair facilities.

Alright: This is more interesting than anything on TV or what the kids are up to so:

1926: What is available?
1922 Manticore/Grayson infrastructure obliterated
Large numbers of ships obliterated
1922 Beowulf infrastructure obliterated

4 years is NOT enough time to rebuild hundreds of years of infrastructure. So, new infrastructure to build forts, ships, missiles, FTL etc etc etc will only PARTIALLY be back up. And what is there will be doing MASSIVE amounts of Maintenance on ships which have had VERY little maintenance in last 4 years.


Thus, whatever you are going to get as Idaho is going to be RMN or RHN castoffs.

Idaho while it has a warp bridge, is NOT very important to the alliance. Beowulf with ~nothing modern is more important. Talbott is more important.
Silesia is more important. Idaho' importance supersedes Zanzibar. Mesa and its warp bridge is more important. Idaho is not more important than Erewhon/Maya Sector[Have their own ships]

So, Idaho have been informally in alliance for years. We need protection and we are willing to pay for it instead of being completely subserviant. RMN at this point has no spare ships. Whatever it does has needs MASSIVE amounts of work and with 4 years of continuous operation it would not surprise me if 75% of their fleet is effectively immobile. We also have thousands of Merchant Marine ships which ALSO need repairs and if they are immobile you have no $$$ coming in. So, repair slips, might be more in line for Idaho than actual military hardware from the RMN side of things.

Proposed Forts: Not going to happen from RMN sources: Beowulf terminus does not have them by this time period nor does Beowulf --> So, Idaho certainly will not have any. ***Will Haven build them???*** Capacitor MDM pods --> why not? Andermani could also build it. Not as nice and as fancy as RMN forts, but we do not need great forts. Idaho is very close to Manticoran space and help. Zunker's terminus is the one which needs the forts. So, you get your forts, but everyone, and I mean EVERYONE who wants into Haven Sector Grand Alliance is screaming for them so... do you build infrastructure, forts, or ships? Lets assume you get your forts.

So, what other RHN/IAN hand me down ships would Idaho most likely obtain? Alliance comittments seem: Survive and since you have a warp bridge, shipping infrastructure seems more important at this time period than war fighting capability, so I see local defense. So, DD's/CL's. What does Idaho already have? Do they even have a DD? Memory is lacking and have not read relevant passages regarding Idaho in a long time so. Personnel training seems a problem and probably are not READY for responsibilities of a CA or beyond. So, hand me down RHN/IAN DD's.

I think the MORE relevant question is: What is RHN/IAN building? Very large number of systems all of a sudden need a home and protection. And essentially no one has any according to the books. So, vast numbers of a common DD/CL/CA design for the alliance good friends and send hand me downs to "selling" AKA --> giving to ~shady new alliance members. Someone has to hold the short stick. Warp Bridge by Manticore effectively a 8th leg of MWHJ = Not holding short stick, so maybe new build "GA" cruiser. Though maybe hand me downs first? Heck it could come from Erewhon who also have an extended range SDM ~ Avalon equivalent. Is RMN really going to give everyone in alliance their war tech? Who will get this?

In either case Idaho, does not have the personnel to have CA's let alone BC'P. Maybe Idahoans are going to Saganami Island School in 1922, but still you do not place rookies into captains chairs. Then again, that is what wet navy here on earth did so... but still only of DD's and they still had at least 4 year of on the job training. So, any proposed Idahoan CL/CA is going to be from RMN/RHN etc personnel, and sorry, I just do not see it especially if they are going to get a fort or 2, or in your case you want them with 8!!! and they have personnel for ZERO.

SOrry, more I type and think about this, the more RED flags I see. Nothing above CL for sure including forts. Might be a fort or two of loaner RHN personnel. With lots of on the job training happening.

I think the MORE relevant question is: Raoul will be a midshipman in 1940PD, so a better question would be what does Idaho have in say, 1936PD, another 10 years later. Jet aircraft travel times here on earth are NOT Honorverse times. Half a year trips in Honorverse are common just like in pre modern sailing ship times. So, extending timeline out a decade to start having to worry about warlords as written in the books as a concern seems FAR more likely and we have to remember, they do not have ships either so anyone who actually DOES have ships automatically should raise the eyebrows of ANYONE in the GA as possible MALIGN to be hunted.

Relax wrote:
Sorry, rambling: no time to edit: gotta go. Short answer: Avalalon equivalent CL's is their ceiling for local alliance commitment duties. A fort or 2 on terminus is true max from RHN/IAN + Merchant hull repair facilities.

Alright: This is more interesting than anything on TV or what the kids are up to so:

1926: What is available?
1922 Manticore/Grayson infrastructure obliterated
Large numbers of ships obliterated
1922 Beowulf infrastructure obliterated

4 years is NOT enough time to rebuild hundreds of years of infrastructure. So, new infrastructure to build forts, ships, missiles, FTL etc etc etc will only PARTIALLY be back up. And what is there will be doing MASSIVE amounts of Maintenance on ships which have had VERY little maintenance in last 4 years.


Thus, whatever you are going to get as Idaho is going to be RMN or RHN castoffs.

Idaho while it has a warp bridge, is NOT very important to the alliance. Beowulf with ~nothing modern is more important. Talbott is more important.
Silesia is more important. Idaho' importance supersedes Zanzibar. Mesa and its warp bridge is more important. Idaho is not more important than Erewhon/Maya Sector[Have their own ships]

So, Idaho have been informally in alliance for years. We need protection and we are willing to pay for it instead of being completely subserviant. RMN at this point has no spare ships. Whatever it does has needs MASSIVE amounts of work and with 4 years of continuous operation it would not surprise me if 75% of their fleet is effectively immobile. We also have thousands of Merchant Marine ships which ALSO need repairs and if they are immobile you have no $$$ coming in. So, repair slips, might be more in line for Idaho than actual military hardware from the RMN side of things.

Proposed Forts: Not going to happen from RMN sources: Beowulf terminus does not have them by this time period nor does Beowulf --> So, Idaho certainly will not have any. ***Will Haven build them???*** Capacitor MDM pods --> why not? Andermani could also build it. Not as nice and as fancy as RMN forts, but we do not need great forts. Idaho is very close to Manticoran space and help. Zunker's terminus is the one which needs the forts. So, you get your forts, but everyone, and I mean EVERYONE who wants into Haven Sector Grand Alliance is screaming for them so... do you build infrastructure, forts, or ships? Lets assume you get your forts.

So, what other RHN/IAN hand me down ships would Idaho most likely obtain? Alliance comittments seem: Survive and since you have a warp bridge, shipping infrastructure seems more important at this time period than war fighting capability, so I see local defense. So, DD's/CL's. What does Idaho already have? Do they even have a DD? Memory is lacking and have not read relevant passages regarding Idaho in a long time so. Personnel training seems a problem and probably are not READY for responsibilities of a CA or beyond. So, hand me down RHN/IAN DD's.

I think the MORE relevant question is: What is RHN/IAN building? Very large number of systems all of a sudden need a home and protection. And essentially no one has any according to the books. So, vast numbers of a common DD/CL/CA design for the alliance good friends and send hand me downs to "selling" AKA --> giving to ~shady new alliance members. Someone has to hold the short stick. Warp Bridge by Manticore effectively a 8th leg of MWHJ = Not holding short stick, so maybe new build "GA" cruiser. Though maybe hand me downs first? Heck it could come from Erewhon who also have an extended range SDM ~ Avalon equivalent. Is RMN really going to give everyone in alliance their war tech? Who will get this?

In either case Idaho, does not have the personnel to have CA's let alone BC'P. Maybe Idahoans are going to Saganami Island School in 1922, but still you do not place rookies into captains chairs. Then again, that is what wet navy here on earth did so... but still only of DD's and they still had at least 4 year of on the job training. So, any proposed Idahoan CL/CA is going to be from RMN/RHN etc personnel, and sorry, I just do not see it especially if they are going to get a fort or 2, or in your case you want them with 8!!! and they have personnel for ZERO.

SOrry, more I type and think about this, the more RED flags I see. Nothing above CL for sure including forts. Might be a fort or two of loaner RHN personnel. With lots of on the job training happening.

I think the MORE relevant question is: Raoul will be a midshipman in 1940PD, so a better question would be what does Idaho have in say, 1936PD, another 10 years later. Jet aircraft travel times here on earth are NOT Honorverse times. Half a year trips in Honorverse are common just like in pre modern sailing ship times. So, extending timeline out a decade to start having to worry about warlords as written in the books as a concern seems FAR more likely and we have to remember, they do not have ships either so anyone who actually DOES have ships automatically should raise the eyebrows of ANYONE in the GA as possible MALIGN to be hunted.

My "1926" date is when they are starting this initiative, I was not intending this to be the date when their shopping list was fulfilled. Yes, Going from a pair of DDs and manning some LACs to CAs and Forts overnight is preposterous from a crew standpoint - any grow would probably have been to slowly add a DD/CL or 2 every 6 months to ramp up the size, and slowly take available build slots from Manticore/Haven/Maya/Anderman as they come available. Your 1936 date would probably be a "realistic" completion date for spinning up the navy to this plan.

Perhaps I should have called it a 10 year plan?