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Friends Indeed

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Friends Indeed
Post by CaptainPerseus   » Sat Aug 03, 2024 12:28 pm

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The next Star Kingdom book has been announced and judging from the plot summary on Amazon and elsewhere it looks like Stephanie and Lionheart will be facing an "even greater conspiracy", one "generations in the making...".

Maybe Weber and Lindskold are tying the Star Kingdom novels in the Mesan Alignment arc? Could we possibly see Alignment agents in Stephanie's time?

It can't be Axelrod and the discovery of the wormhole junction from the Manticore Ascendant books, because that doesn't happen in universe for another 22 years.

Guess we'll find out in March of 25.
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Sun Aug 04, 2024 1:07 am

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CaptainPerseus wrote:The next Star Kingdom book has been announced and judging from the plot summary on Amazon and elsewhere it looks like Stephanie and Lionheart will be facing an "even greater conspiracy", one "generations in the making...".

Maybe Weber and Lindskold are tying the Star Kingdom novels in the Mesan Alignment arc? Could we possibly see Alignment agents in Stephanie's time?

It can't be Axelrod and the discovery of the wormhole junction from the Manticore Ascendant books, because that doesn't happen in universe for another 22 years.

Guess we'll find out in March of 25.


According to "What Price Dreams?" Mesa didn't get interested in treecats until after Stephanie pushed the Ninth Amendment through the Manticore Parliament (which happened several decades in the future of this series).
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Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by richardinor   » Sun Aug 04, 2024 8:26 pm

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We learn in one of the books (I don’t remember where) that the Harrington’s are a lost alignment alpha line. Could the real reason Stephanie’s parents immigrated to Sphinx, was to flee the alignment?

At a book signing I attended several years ago, Mr. Weber said that, at some point in one of the books, Stephanie's parents are going to be killed. Mr. Weber said he wants to explore how Stephanie deals with death. Could the alignment have found the Harringtons?
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by tlb   » Sun Aug 04, 2024 9:03 pm

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richardinor wrote:We learn in one of the books (I don’t remember where) that the Harrington’s are a lost alignment alpha line. Could the real reason Stephanie’s parents immigrated to Sphinx, was to flee the alignment?

At a book signing I attended several years ago, Mr. Weber said that, at some point in one of the books, Stephanie's parents are going to be killed. Mr. Weber said he wants to explore how Stephanie deals with death. Could the alignment have found the Harringtons?

This is the full blurb that for the next book:
A NEW NOVEL FEATURING STEPHANIE HARRINGTON IN HONORVERSE PREQUEL SERIES

THE TROUBLE WITH TREECATS

Stephanie Harrington didn’t discover treecats—they were indigenous to the planet Sphinx, a colony of the tiny Star Kingdom of Manticore. But at age ten she was the first human to bond with one. Now, almost 17, she is the species greatest champion.

To the rest of the human galaxy, if they are known at all, they are recognized as tool using, socially organized, fuzzy little creatures, with no known method of communication—who also happen to be fierce hunters. But are they sapient…? Because if they are, that would have all sorts of repercussions for the families who have settled on Sphinx, the Harringtons not the least.

There will be winners, and there will be losers. And Stephanie is there to make sure the treecats don’t lose out.

But Stephanie, the treecats, and Sphinx itself may be caught up in an even greater conspiracy than the one to help the fighting ‘cats survive, one generations in the making.…
How many generation long conspiracies are there in the Honorverse? It sounds like the Malign trying to reclaim the Harringtons, if they really have no interest in the treecats at this point.

I believe that the mention of the Harringtons being a lost Alpha line was in Uncompromising Honor.
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Aug 05, 2024 1:16 am

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tlb wrote:How many generation long conspiracies are there in the Honorverse? It sounds like the Malign trying to reclaim the Harringtons, if they really have no interest in the treecats at this point.

I believe that the mention of the Harringtons being a lost Alpha line was in Uncompromising Honor.


That would imply they have some important meaning to the Alignment, which doesn't seem likely at all. The Alignment compartmentalises everything, so no one (except maybe the Detweiler-in-charge) knows everything and even then I doubt the Detweiler would know the details. No one piece should be irreplaceable. But who knows, maybe they did make mistakes.

Maybe the Harringtons were Detweiler-level Onion and thus Richard and Marjorie's move to the MBS posed an existential-level threat to the Alignment, because they had known the Detweiler line had not failed. That's the only thing I can think of that would be a significant fact worthy of sending an assassin on a year-long round-trip to the boondocks. They'd have had to have proof too, otherwise the Galaxy would just think them as nuts.

The blurb can also be a red herring. RFC does like to lead us by the nose and then reveal we had the wrong assumptions all along. The blurb is talking about treecat sentience and we know that there is one case of a sentient species being declared "animals" and hunted to extinction in the Honorverse. The treecats' sentience will mean a lot of lost money in property rights to Manticore aristocracy, so what if the conspiracy is because someone had known about them? What if the Fréchot et Fils expedition didn't miss them and just didn't realise what they had found, but someone else did? Someone who did come aboard the Jason and has been getting data on them for a few generations trying to secure their declaration of non-sentience? After all, the Ninth Amendment needs a reason to have happened.
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by Bluesqueak   » Mon Aug 12, 2024 5:15 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
That would imply they have some important meaning to the Alignment, which doesn't seem likely at all. The Alignment compartmentalises everything, so no one (except maybe the Detweiler-in-charge) knows everything and even then I doubt the Detweiler would know the details. No one piece should be irreplaceable. But who knows, maybe they did make mistakes.

Maybe the Harringtons were Detweiler-level Onion and thus Richard and Marjorie's move to the MBS posed an existential-level threat to the Alignment, because they had known the Detweiler line had not failed. That's the only thing I can think of that would be a significant fact worthy of sending an assassin on a year-long round-trip to the boondocks. They'd have had to have proof too, otherwise the Galaxy would just think them as nuts.

The blurb can also be a red herring. RFC does like to lead us by the nose and then reveal we had the wrong assumptions all along. The blurb is talking about treecat sentience and we know that there is one case of a sentient species being declared "animals" and hunted to extinction in the Honorverse. The treecats' sentience will mean a lot of lost money in property rights to Manticore aristocracy, so what if the conspiracy is because someone had known about them? What if the Fréchot et Fils expedition didn't miss them and just didn't realise what they had found, but someone else did? Someone who did come aboard the Jason and has been getting data on them for a few generations trying to secure their declaration of non-sentience? After all, the Ninth Amendment needs a reason to have happened.


The Harringtons themselves don’t need to know anything beyond that the Alignment exists behind Mesa and that they want no part of it - if ‘Mesa’ is after possibly telepathic treecats, the Harringtons will be likely to share their knowledge about Mesa to the SFS. So any super secret Alignment operation to get treecat specimens might have ‘kill the adult Harringtons’ on their to-do list.

Preferably in such a way that Stephanie doesn’t realise who did it. Stephanie is potentially very useful to the Alignment. She’s an Alpha who’s bonded to a treecat.

I’ve been rereading the Star Kingdom books and one thing I noticed in the first one is that you can read the Harringtons as leaving Meyerdahl in a tearing hurry. Stephanie was about to take up a coveted internship. Why let your daughter even apply if you were planning to emigrate?

Plus, Sphinx is barely out of the plague, and that plague has already mutated past the vaccines once. Her parents freehold isn’t just on a boon docks planet, it’s in the middle of nowhere ON the planet. And Sphinx’s desperate need for colonists means they can afford to relocate right now and ‘explains’ why they might.

Oh, and they go for yeoman status, using up some of their land credits so that they’re not new nobility.

Then when they’re safely nobody important in the middle of nowhere, Stephanie ‘discovers’ the treecats…
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Aug 13, 2024 10:27 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:I’ve been rereading the Star Kingdom books and one thing I noticed in the first one is that you can read the Harringtons as leaving Meyerdahl in a tearing hurry. Stephanie was about to take up a coveted internship. Why let your daughter even apply if you were planning to emigrate?


Given the trip times at the time, it's possible this is when the opportunity arose and the ship was going to be at Meyerdahl. Stephanie was 11 or so at the time and it appears she had known what she wanted in life for a long while. Most kids I know at that age change their minds every third month about what their professions will be, from astronaut to lawyer to bio-engineer to fire-fighter and so on. But some fix in their minds very early on what they want; my sister always said she was going to be a doctor and never wavered on that. I get the feeling that Stephanie is such a strong-willed child.

And thus her parents had to allow her to apply. Explaining to her that it would be of no use because they were going to emigrate would be too complex and also unnecessary for them; it's easier to allow it. And this is even assuming they knew for sure they were going to emigrate; maybe it was just a possibility among others in their minds, pending some information from the Manticore immigration agent's information that they had yet to receive.

Plus, Sphinx is barely out of the plague, and that plague has already mutated past the vaccines once. Her parents freehold isn’t just on a boon docks planet, it’s in the middle of nowhere ON the planet. And Sphinx’s desperate need for colonists means they can afford to relocate right now and ‘explains’ why they might.

Oh, and they go for yeoman status, using up some of their land credits so that they’re not new nobility.


Sorry, you went over my head here. Can you expand on what you meant with this? Sphinx is no more "barely out of the plague" than the rest of the MBS. If anything, it's more "out of the plague" than Manticore itself, given the smaller population and thus the lesser ability of the virus to transmit across isolated communities. And how does their choice of freehold versus nobility imply anything?

They did choose to go to Sphinx instead of Manticore, which is an interesting question for a family that came from Meyerdahl, instead of another mostly-agrarian planet. Though even Meyerdahl did have forests (well-controlled, well-known), so the Harringtons could be what passed for farmers there.

Then when they’re safely nobody important in the middle of nowhere, Stephanie ‘discovers’ the treecats…


That could be a centuries-long conspiracy, that the Franchot et Fils expedition did find the treecats.
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by Bluesqueak   » Tue Aug 13, 2024 11:42 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:I’ve been rereading the Star Kingdom books and one thing I noticed in the first one is that you can read the Harringtons as leaving Meyerdahl in a tearing hurry. Stephanie was about to take up a coveted internship. Why let your daughter even apply if you were planning to emigrate?


Given the trip times at the time, it's possible this is when the opportunity arose and the ship was going to be at Meyerdahl. Stephanie was 11 or so at the time and it appears she had known what she wanted in life for a long while. Most kids I know at that age change their minds every third month about what their professions will be, from astronaut to lawyer to bio-engineer to fire-fighter and so on. But some fix in their minds very early on what they want; my sister always said she was going to be a doctor and never wavered on that. I get the feeling that Stephanie is such a strong-willed child.

And thus her parents had to allow her to apply. Explaining to her that it would be of no use because they were going to emigrate would be too complex and also unnecessary for them; it's easier to allow it. And this is even assuming they knew for sure they were going to emigrate; maybe it was just a possibility among others in their minds, pending some information from the Manticore immigration agent's information that they had yet to receive.

Plus, Sphinx is barely out of the plague, and that plague has already mutated past the vaccines once. Her parents freehold isn’t just on a boon docks planet, it’s in the middle of nowhere ON the planet. And Sphinx’s desperate need for colonists means they can afford to relocate right now and ‘explains’ why they might.

Oh, and they go for yeoman status, using up some of their land credits so that they’re not new nobility.


Sorry, you went over my head here. Can you expand on what you meant with this? Sphinx is no more "barely out of the plague" than the rest of the MBS. If anything, it's more "out of the plague" than Manticore itself, given the smaller population and thus the lesser ability of the virus to transmit across isolated communities. And how does their choice of freehold versus nobility imply anything?

They did choose to go to Sphinx instead of Manticore, which is an interesting question for a family that came from Meyerdahl, instead of another mostly-agrarian planet. Though even Meyerdahl did have forests (well-controlled, well-known), so the Harringtons could be what passed for farmers there.

Then when they’re safely nobody important in the middle of nowhere, Stephanie ‘discovers’ the treecats…


A Beautiful Friendship implies Sphinx is just out of the plague. Marjorie has to restart a lot of projects because her predecessor died. Stephanie says people are ‘crazy busy’ restarting. Scott MacDallan arrived twelve years ago and was treating plague victims on Sphinx.

Re: yeoman versus nobility: From What Price Dreams: “she [Stephanie] seems to’ve spent a great deal of effort avoiding publicity.” And later: “several accounts insist she was offered a peerage…”

At which point we’re moving from ‘could only afford yeoman status’ to ‘actively avoiding a hereditary role in parliament.’ Again, an Alpha line with an entirely legitimate title of nobility would be very useful to the Alignment. Add this to the avoiding publicity and the impression is that the Harringtons are a Lost Alpha line working hard to stay lost.

That could be a centuries-long conspiracy, that the Franchot et Fils expedition did find the treecats.


Could be, but again, What Price Dreams: “The mere possibility that the ‘cats might be telepaths had sufficed to send Mesan agents creeping into the Star Kingdom to acquire samples.”

That is, a perfectly good centuries old conspiracy had already sent ‘Mesan’ agents. By the time of Crown Princess Adrienne, this is history - and the exact date is carefully not specified.

Yes, the book could have a new conspiracy for its plot, but the Star Kingdom series has been very careful to plant the notion that Mesa will find the treecats fascinating and might pay highly for information. Chekhov’s gun - if you mention Mesa in the early books, they should show up in the later ones. (Just as Stan Chang’s drug use became a later plot point and Trudy’s early desire for pet animals matured into voluntary work.)

And the early books make it sound like Stephanie had no idea her family was going to emigrate. She’s been ‘brought’, she’s been ‘dumped on Sphinx’, she’d ’deeply resented’ leaving Meyerdahl. It’s also an exciting ‘rescue mission’ … Stephanie seems to have no memory of her parents ever mentioning emigrating until they’d booked the starship tickets. Add this to the other Chekhov’s gun from the main series - the Harringtons are a Lost Alpha line.

I mean, you could have them just deciding to emigrate and not having a clue about the Alignment, but that’s not really an exciting plot.
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:12 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:A Beautiful Friendship implies Sphinx is just out of the plague. Marjorie has to restart a lot of projects because her predecessor died. Stephanie says people are ‘crazy busy’ restarting. Scott MacDallan arrived twelve years ago and was treating plague victims on Sphinx.


Got it, thanks. But that doesn't imply anything nefarious. The plague was the reason why Manticore was bringing in new immigrants in the first place.

Re: yeoman versus nobility: From What Price Dreams: “she [Stephanie] seems to’ve spent a great deal of effort avoiding publicity.” And later: “several accounts insist she was offered a peerage…”

At which point we’re moving from ‘could only afford yeoman status’ to ‘actively avoiding a hereditary role in parliament.’ Again, an Alpha line with an entirely legitimate title of nobility would be very useful to the Alignment. Add this to the avoiding publicity and the impression is that the Harringtons are a Lost Alpha line working hard to stay lost.


Hardly. A noble in Manticore at the time had little to no particular use for the MAlign: Manticore was in the middle of nowhere, literally. The League was 6 months away travelling in hyperspace and the next island of civilisation was Haven, another 3 or so months further out. It's unknown when the MAlign started turning their eyes towards Haven for their part to bring the League down and create chaos, but this would be too early. We know that in a couple of decades from ABF's time that the only other entity to have any battleships at all was the Andermani Empire, which implies that Haven didn't have the military prowess it would have needed to attract the MAlign's attention. Maybe the Andermani did and The Plan was later changed to Haven when infiltration of the emperor's court proved infeasible and Haven's economy grew.

Either way, a noble in Manticore is not of more use than a noble in the Free Duchy of Barca or a wealthy industrialist in Casca. It's not like the Harringtons would suddenly become the Royal Family; being just one more family of Earls and Countesses, or Barons and Baronesses among the hundred-or-so peerages of the time isn't going to give them more attention than otherwise.

As for avoiding the peerage and attention, there is a covert reason: the treecats themselves. We know they did start a centuries-long conspiracy to keep the treecats' true level of intelligence unknown. To assume the Harringtons had a second, covert reason is stretching it. Not impossible... just stretching it. Besides, I don't think the peerage would get them more attention than they were already getting from having discovered the twelfth sentient alien race. The MAlign would be far more attracted by the treecats -- and we know they did attempt to acquire treecats -- than by the Harringtons.

What could be a part of it is lying low to avoid being leveraged by the MAlign into helping them obtain treecats. But what could the MAlign use to blackmail the Harringtons?

Yes, the book could have a new conspiracy for its plot, but the Star Kingdom series has been very careful to plant the notion that Mesa will find the treecats fascinating and might pay highly for information. Chekhov’s gun - if you mention Mesa in the early books, they should show up in the later ones. (Just as Stan Chang’s drug use became a later plot point and Trudy’s early desire for pet animals matured into voluntary work.)


While Chekhov's Gun is true, that doesn't mean Mesa has to be the big baddies out there. They had already been established as prominent geneticists, like Beowulf, so it's only natural that they would have interest. It had also been established that Manpower had attempted to acquire them, even getting involved in Crown Princess Adrienne's attempted assassination (which spectacularly backfired!). So they had to be mentioned.

And the early books make it sound like Stephanie had no idea her family was going to emigrate. She’s been ‘brought’, she’s been ‘dumped on Sphinx’, she’d ’deeply resented’ leaving Meyerdahl. It’s also an exciting ‘rescue mission’ … Stephanie seems to have no memory of her parents ever mentioning emigrating until they’d booked the starship tickets. Add this to the other Chekhov’s gun from the main series - the Harringtons are a Lost Alpha line.

I mean, you could have them just deciding to emigrate and not having a clue about the Alignment, but that’s not really an exciting plot.


I will grant you this is a good possibility. We know the MAlign is out there and that Manpower has their spies trying to obtain treecat samples. If we also know that the Harringtons are a lost Alpha line -- whether they know it or not -- it stands to reason that a MAlign agent might try to coerce them into getting involved. But back to my question: how? Being a "lost line" implies they'd already lost interest in the Alignment's goals, so asking for their commitment to "the cause" is not going to be of use.

On the other hand, I don't think we'll get to that deep. For one thing, the Star Kingdom series has mostly stood alone from the rest. You don't need to read the rest of the series and sub-series in order to understand it. It's targeted at young adults and so far all the books have been detective problem-solving, not military sci-fi. So I don't think David and Jane are going to pivot the series completely to the point previous readers would be unable to follow and would become disinterested.

Bringing in Manpower agents, yes. That can also start the rehabilitation of Terrence Bolgeo, which we know from Toll of Honor did happen.
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Re: Friends Indeed
Post by Bluesqueak   » Wed Aug 14, 2024 12:46 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Bringing in Manpower agents, yes. That can also start the rehabilitation of Terrence Bolgeo, which we know from Toll of Honor did happen.


I actually agree that the most likely scenario is that Manpower is sending agents and that the only reasons an Alignment agent might be one of them is that a) they really want telepathy and b) they’re vaguely curious whether the ‘Stephanie Harrington’ who first bonded with a Treecat is of the Harrington line that went missing from Meyerdahl. If she is, that might be a genetic trait of the Harrington line - useful. I think they’re likely to be far more interested in a Treecat than an Alpha.

That said, while ‘lost Alpha’ is a good shorthand explanation of why Honor is so very exceptional, it does create a major plot hole for the Star Kingdom series. Which is, that anyone researching treecats finds out that the first bonded human was a Stephanie Harrington

Yeah, Sphinx at this point was a howling wilderness in the middle of nowhere, but academics and con-men are still making the voyage. Those treecats are valuable enough to trek out to said howling wilderness.

But despite this, the Harrington Alpha line is ‘lost’.

In terms of the detective story, I’m in agreement that Richard and Marjorie are going to die at some point in the series. Stephanie discovering her parents fled Meyerdahl because they belonged to a harmless society for better acceptance of genies - which turns out to be not-so-harmless- could be the link between the two series.



And yes, Tennessee Bolego might reappear.
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