Spoilers - Toll of Honor

penny wrote:What still is not clear is if dirt on enough members of the Conservative Association was found in those files to still have supported Young regardless, had those files not existed. Young commented that some of those members were on his side simply because of those files.

I always wanted to know what percentage that was. Thus, was the bulk of the Conservative Association worthless, or were they simply held and controlled under the threat of the puppet master's blackmail? I also always wanted to know how high up the food chain those files went. Admittedly I am human, and I want to know if the Queen, Queen's consort, Prime Minister, etc., was found in those files.

tlb wrote:I do not think we will know what the percentage was, but I do not believe that the information was confined to the Conservative Association members. It would be much more powerful to have dirt on people not in the party. In particular to have dirt on people in the parties controlled by Lady Descroix, and Countess New Kiev and maybe even those leaders.

I would consider that the ones who are only held in the party by blackmail to be the ones that are "worthless", it is the others that are the true believers.

I agree. But I was thinking that since the Conservative Association is prominent in text as being instrumental in supporting Young and holding up the declaration of war, that perhaps the North Hollow files didn't have much on the majority of members in the other five parties.


England:

The Queen, “the sovereign is above party politics but had “three rights – to be consulted, to encourage and to warn.”

I assume it is the same for Beth on Manticore but I am unsure whether it applies to the Queen's consort, Justin, as well.

Hamish, Honor and many of the other character's party affiliation is not given. AFAIK.



Conservative Association:
Centrist Party:
Progressives: Lady Descroix
Liberals: Countess New Kiev
New Men:

BTW, I can only find mention of five parties. Anyone know the name of the missing party?

penny wrote:Conservative Association:
Centrist Party:
Progressives: Lady Descroix
Liberals: Countess New Kiev
New Men:

BTW, I can only find mention of five parties. Anyone know the name of the missing party?

Crown Loyalists: led by Henry McShain, Marquis of New Dublin [MtH]
Also Cathy says Anton Zilwicki is a Crown Loyalist (though obviously he's not a member in Lords or Commons), and DuCain from the program "Into The Fire" is "a card-carrying Crown Loyalist"

That party I knew of the top off my head.

But while quickly checking to confirm, and to see if we knew any major members, I found that AAC's glossary has six entries for 'Manticoran political party'

At All Costs wrote:Centrists—
A Manticoran political party typified by pragmatism and moderation on most issues but very tightly focused on the Havenite threat and how to defeat it. The party supported by Honor Harrington.

[...]
Conservative Association—
A generally reactionary Manticoran political party whose primary consti-tuency is the extremely conservative aristocracy.
Coup de Vitesse—

[...]
Crown Loyalists—
A Manticoran political party united around the concept that the Star Kingdom requires a strong monarchy, largely as a counter balance to the power of the conservative element in the aristocracy. Despite this, the Star Kingdom's more progressive aristocracy is heavily represented in the Crown Loyalists.

[...]
Liberal Party—
A Manticoran political party typified by a belief in isolationism and the need for social intervention and the use of the power of the state to "level" economic and political inequities within the Star Kingdom.

[...]
New Men—
A Manticoran political party headed by Sheridan Wallace. Small and opportunistic.

[...]
Progressive Party—
A Manticoran political party typified by what it considers a pragmatic acceptance of realpolitik. It is somewhat more socially liberal than the Centrists but has traditionally considered a war against Haven as unwinnable and believed that the Star Kingdom's interests would be best served by cutting some sort of "deal" with the PRH.

And More Than Honor's infodump on the Honorverse had a paragraph or two on each as well; but here's their leadership back when that infodump was set

More Than Honor wrote:* The Centrists, led by Allen Summervale, Duke of Cromarty [...]
* The Crown Loyalists, led by Henry McShain, Marquis of New Dublin [...]
* The Liberal Party, headed by Marisa Turner, Countess of New Kiev [...]
* The Conservative Association was "headed by Michael Janvier, Baron of High Ridge [...]
* The Progressive Party, headed jointly by the Earl of Gray Hill and Lady Elaine Descroix [...]
* The "New Men" Party, led by Sir Sheridan Wallace [...]

Though this is obviously out of date since, at minimum, Cromarty was assassinated and High Ridge catastrophically fell from grace.

Jonathan_S wrote:Though this is obviously out of date since, at minimum, Cromarty was assassinated and High Ridge catastrophically fell from grace.

I might be misremembering (again) but wasn't the Liberal Party splitting after the High Ridge collapse, with the populace Representatives (and a few lords) following Kathy Montaine, and the "hold out" old school Liberal Lords going their own direction?

At the same time, the Conservative party as we knew it collapsed - most of the members held their seats (and ideology), so I doubt Conservativism disappeared from the landscape, but they might have formed several smaller Blocs focused on different political outlooks. (And they never had a great following with the populace, so it's not like they are going to be power brokers going forward.)

penny wrote:Conservative Association:
Centrist Party:
Crown Loyalist: Anton Zilwicki
Progressives: Lady Descroix
Liberals: Countess New Kiev
New Men:

BTW, I can only find mention of five parties. Anyone know the name of the missing party?

Jonathan_S wrote:Crown Loyalists: led by Henry McShain, Marquis of New Dublin [MtH]
Also Cathy says Anton Zilwicki is a Crown Loyalist (though obviously he's not a member in Lords or Commons), and DuCain from the program "Into The Fire" is "a card-carrying Crown Loyalist"

That party I knew of the top off my head.

But while quickly checking to confirm, and to see if we knew any major members, I found that AAC's glossary has six entries for 'Manticoran political party'

At All Costs wrote:Centrists—
A Manticoran political party typified by pragmatism and moderation on most issues but very tightly focused on the Havenite threat and how to defeat it. The party supported by Honor Harrington.

[...]
Conservative Association—
A generally reactionary Manticoran political party whose primary consti-tuency is the extremely conservative aristocracy.
Coup de Vitesse—

[...]
Crown Loyalists—
A Manticoran political party united around the concept that the Star Kingdom requires a strong monarchy, largely as a counter balance to the power of the conservative element in the aristocracy. Despite this, the Star Kingdom's more progressive aristocracy is heavily represented in the Crown Loyalists.

[...]
Liberal Party—
A Manticoran political party typified by a belief in isolationism and the need for social intervention and the use of the power of the state to "level" economic and political inequities within the Star Kingdom.

[...]
New Men—
A Manticoran political party headed by Sheridan Wallace. Small and opportunistic.

[...]
Progressive Party—
A Manticoran political party typified by what it considers a pragmatic acceptance of realpolitik. It is somewhat more socially liberal than the Centrists but has traditionally considered a war against Haven as unwinnable and believed that the Star Kingdom's interests would be best served by cutting some sort of "deal" with the PRH.

And More Than Honor's infodump on the Honorverse had a paragraph or two on each as well; but here's their leadership back when that infodump was set

More Than Honor wrote:* The Centrists, led by Allen Summervale, Duke of Cromarty [...]
* The Crown Loyalists, led by Henry McShain, Marquis of New Dublin [...]
* The Liberal Party, headed by Marisa Turner, Countess of New Kiev [...]
* The Conservative Association was "headed by Michael Janvier, Baron of High Ridge [...]
* The Progressive Party, headed jointly by the Earl of Gray Hill and Lady Elaine Descroix [...]
* The "New Men" Party, led by Sir Sheridan Wallace [...]

Though this is obviously out of date since, at minimum, Cromarty was assassinated and High Ridge catastrophically fell from grace.

Thanks to Jonathan_S, I updated the grist for the political mill.

Anyway, I cannot seem to figure out how it all works. There are six political parties. Yet only one party, for the most part, gets to hold up the declaration of war?

Exactly how is the power structure broken down? Are there two groups of three parties each, where three parties in each group are aligned? Or is it each party for itself? If it is each party for itself, how could the declaration of war have been held up by the nonsense and short-sightedness of a single party? Where does majority rule figure in Manticoran politics?

I am still working my way through the book. It is slow going and oftentimes I get lost being out of phase with the timeline.

penny wrote:Anyway, I cannot seem to figure out how it all works. There are six political parties. Yet only one party, for the most part, gets to hold up the declaration of war?

That's not exactly how it's described in the book. It looks like the power distribution during this early Cromarty government was a coalition between the Centrists, Crown Loyalists, and the Conservative Association. That means the Centrists and Crown Loyalists did not have a majority to rule. Either that or a declaration of war requires more than a majority (2/3 or 3/4 majority for example).

Exactly how is the power structure broken down? Are there two groups of three parties each, where three parties in each group are aligned? Or is it each party for itself? If it is each party for itself, how could the declaration of war have been held up by the nonsense and short-sightedness of a single party? Where does majority rule figure in Manticoran politics?

It wasn't a single party. The other parties were also against, especially the Progressives and Liberals, who had been arguing for peace with Haven. At this point, they began saying that the war was started by the Legislaturalist government and that the new Pierre regime did not want it, so the Manticore Alliance should not start this war either.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Anyway, I cannot seem to figure out how it all works. There are six political parties. Yet only one party, for the most part, gets to hold up the declaration of war?

That's not exactly how it's described in the book. It looks like the power distribution during this early Cromarty government was a coalition between the Centrists, Crown Loyalists, and the Conservative Association. That means the Centrists and Crown Loyalists did not have a majority to rule. Either that or a declaration of war requires more than a majority (2/3 or 3/4 majority for example).

You remembered correctly. In the opening of chapter 1 of FoD it specifically says

Field of Dishonor wrote:Their own Centrist Party held a clear sixty-vote majority in the Commons, but only a plurality in the Upper House. With the alliance of the Crown Loyalists and the Association, the Cromarty Government could poll a narrow majority in the Lords; without the Association, that majority disappeared, and that made High Ridge, insufferable as he was and loathsome as he might be, critically important.
Especially now.

There are two interrelated issues if the Conservative Lords defect.

First, as you point out the two big opposition (those not in the coalition government) parties favor exploring peace with the new Peep government -- so are unlikely to generate many vote for the declaration of war. (But if either of them did decide to favor it that would let the vote pass regardless of how the members of the smaller Conservative party voted. And the New Men don't seem to command enough votes to either hold up or push through the vote) So, we can see there's no mechanism in the Manticoran government to specifically let one party block a vote from passing -- it just so happens that, at this time, conditions are such that one party is temporarily in that position.
(And even in the US two party system there have been times recently when a majority was so razor thin that even one or two party members could prevent a vote passing; not because there's some formal power to block a vote but "just" because you couldn't expect any votes from the opposition and so their vote was always required to hit a majority. But swing control of a few seats either way and the defacto power they'd held evaporates)

But Second, in a government like Manticore's (or the UK's) a PM can only hold power while they head a coalition of parties that command a majority of the seats.

So, even if enough Liberal or Progressive Lords were willing to vote with the Centrists and Crown Loyalists to pass a declaration of war, the Conservatives appear to have a further trump card. If they pull out of the current coalition then Cromarty's government would immediately fall and some new coalition would have to be formed. I think (not 100% sure, but I think) that that would preempt taking votes on anything else -- which at a minimum would delay a decision of declaration of war until a new coalition was formed. But if the new coalition ended up with a Liberal or Progressive PM then they'd seem unlikely to push for declaration of war.

(And if it was seen as unlikely that many Lords from those parties would vote for war it seems even less likely that either party would agree to back Cromarty as PM. So even if his Centrists were a part of whatever new coalition formed, one of those major parties would also need to join to offset the loss of the Conservatives; and they'd probably demand to head the coalition as their price of joining)

It is a pity that King Roger had the insight to develop Project Gram to protect Manticore agains its enemies. Too bad he couldn't develop something to protect Manticore from politicians.

I am still having trouble wrapping my head around it. There is the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) who reports to the Second Space Lord, who was Patricia Givens at the time. Givens knew that war with the Peeps was inevitable. Yet she couldn't sway the heads of the politicians by getting them to see that their own lives were in danger. And Givens didn't act in a vacuum, in case they didn't trust what she says. There is the Queen. And all parties concerned knows that the Queen makes sure she is well informed.

What's worse, I know that what happened is quite often how politics go.

When I was about fifteen and full of my athletic prowess, my family tried to talk a close neighbor of ours into running for Governor. She said to us at the dinner table looking at me, who proudly just got three touchdowns as quarterback. “I don't have the athletic ability to be a politician. You have to be able to stand up straight when your balance is obviously off because you can't see or hear. And you have to be able to spread your feet apart and contort by bending over as far as possible and shoving your head up your butt. I can't make decisions with my head up my butt.”

Obviously politicians can't either.

As an aside: I often wonder exactly how things are in real life in the HV as far as ONI and trying to get information on an enemy. For instance, would citizens be allowed to travel between Haven and Manticore? On Haven, would a Manticoran citizen who is there to spy be watched as closely as the KGB would watch an American? And vice versa for a Haven visitor to Manticore? How freely can visitors travel between systems without being watched or be in danger of being arrested. If travel is possible at all.

Firstly think that the Honorverse is set as far forward of us, as we are of Ancient Greece. Thus opinions may vary.

In the current OTL it depends if countries are at war or not, totalitarian or free, friendly or unfriendly.
Even citizens of some totalitarian countries can leave to travel. China and Russia come to mind. Meanwhile North Korea no.
When in the trade (so to speak) I had it explained to me that there are no friendly other countries espionage agencies, just espionage agencies belonging to friendly countries.
One of my security clearances was AUSTIO high security, meaning not to be shared with our close friends UK and US.
It beggars belief, but Australia currently is charging an Army Private who came here as an adult (from Russia) less than ten years ago, and was given a high clearence, with spying for Russia.

penny wrote:It is a pity that King Roger had the insight to develop Project Gram to protect Manticore agains its enemies. Too bad he couldn't develop something to protect Manticore from politicians.

I am still having trouble wrapping my head around it. There is the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) who reports to the Second Space Lord, who was Patricia Givens at the time. Givens knew that war with the Peeps was inevitable. Yet she couldn't sway the heads of the politicians by getting them to see that their own lives were in danger. And Givens didn't act in a vacuum, in case they didn't trust what she says. There is the Queen. And all parties concerned knows that the Queen makes sure she is well informed.

What's worse, I know that what happened is quite often how politics go.

When I was about fifteen and full of my athletic prowess, my family tried to talk a close neighbor of ours into running for Governor. She said to us at the dinner table looking at me, who proudly just got three touchdowns as quarterback. “I don't have the athletic ability to be a politician. You have to be able to stand up straight when your balance is obviously off because you can't see or hear. And you have to be able to spread your feet apart and contort by bending over as far as possible and shoving your head up your butt. I can't make decisions with my head up my butt.”

Obviously politicians can't either.

As an aside: I often wonder exactly how things are in real life in the HV as far as ONI and trying to get information on an enemy. For instance, would citizens be allowed to travel between Haven and Manticore? On Haven, would a Manticoran citizen who is there to spy be watched as closely as the KGB would watch an American? And vice versa for a Haven visitor to Manticore? How freely can visitors travel between systems without being watched or be in danger of being arrested. If travel is possible at all.

One thing that seems to be the bull in the China shop is the almost above the law status of members of the House of Lords and Commons. It also seems to be the same with Grayson regarding the Keys. These high ranking civilian positions are instrumental to the balance of power. How can a member of either be thrown in jail for a crime when his vote is instrumental in the smooth running of the government?

****** *

On another note. I was under the impression that a lot of people attended the duels on Manticore. I don't think any extra observers were there for Tankersley's execution.

I was also under the impression that the range of each duelist from each other would be forty meters. And that that forty meters would be written in stone. But each contestant stands back to back then takes twenty paces, turns and fires. It seems that there is an assumption of one meter per pace. However, the length of individual strides are different. Someone as tall as Honor would certainly have a longer stride.

At any rate, I assumed the forty meters would be measured beforehand.

penny wrote:As an aside: I often wonder exactly how things are in real life in the HV as far as ONI and trying to get information on an enemy. For instance, would citizens be allowed to travel between Haven and Manticore? On Haven, would a Manticoran citizen who is there to spy be watched as closely as the KGB would watch an American? And vice versa for a Haven visitor to Manticore? How freely can visitors travel between systems without being watched or be in danger of being arrested. If travel is possible at all.

I think there's a short story "Let's go to Prague" where they might touch travel formality, as some manticorans travel to a havenite planet for their "holiday".