Spoilers - Toll of Honor

tlb wrote:

“As Steadholder Harrington, you command the entire Guard, which can be enlarged to whatever extent the Steading requires. The Mayhew Steadholder’s Guard, for example, has a roster strength of over seven thousand. At the moment, the Harrington Guard is at only about four hundred.”

penny wrote:I don't know what Honor's financial situation was then, but I do not think she was rich at that time. Thank goodness she didn't have seven thousand armsmen to pay, but four hundred are not cheap either. On her navy salary? Imagine paying a decent yearly salary for four hundred people.

Their salary did come out of Honor's pocket didn't it? IINM, I think she was given support in some fashion in the beginning? And the steading most likely collected taxes, at the very least. Or would her subjects pay taxes to Grayson?

She earned prize money at Basilisk for contraband confiscated and a share at Hancock of all the ships captured. From Field of Dishonor:

Chapter 4 wrote:Honor's prize money from Basilisk Station had made her a millionaire; Neufsteiler's management had made her a multi-millionaire several times over.

Chapter 4 wrote:"Dame Honor," he said patiently, "a dreadnought is valued at somewhere in the neighborhood of thirty-two billion dollars, and the prize court awards three percent of the value of a surrendered enemy ship to the task force which captured it, assuming the Navy buys the prize into service. Of that total, the flag captains of said task force split twelve percent among themselves, and there were only four flag captains in Hancock at the time Admiral Chin surrendered. The Admiralty survey judged two of her five surviving dreadnoughts too badly damaged for repair, but the Navy bought the other three in. Now, three percent of ninety-six billion dollars is two-point-eight-eight billion, and twelve percent of that is three hundred forty-five million, plus change. Which means, dear lady, that your share comes to a paltry eighty-six million four hundred thousand dollars—exclusive of the lighter vessels surrendered with them. Of course, they only added another six million to your total award, so I suppose we don't have to worry about them. Believe me, those figures are correct. In fact, if you look at page three, you'll see that the most junior enlisted person serving under you will receive almost fifty thousand dollars."

That was how she personally could create and fund the company to build domes on Grayson and which added a considerable sum to her net worth after that got clear of the sabotage damage. The Steading was producing money by the time of Flag in Exile.

I totally forgot about her prize money. And I suppose she'd be willing to invest the bulk of it for use on Grayson. Which would be around fifty million dollars, being generous. It would probably be several million dollars less than fifty million.

But if she had to pay her 400 guardsmen and she paid them a handsome salary of $100,000 that would eat up most of that fifty million to the tune of 40M. Leaving only ten million for other business. And the way business works you want to have reserves in case something catastrophic happens. See Sky Domes. And then there is the exorbitant cost of insurance; which I imagine is quite high on Grayson since war came to their doorsteps.

I suppose the $50M would work if the salary isn't so handsome. A fifty thousand dollar salary would only amount to twenty million of the fifty million she could give from her prize ships. And again, fifty million is pushing it.

But then there is the salary of her armsmen. She'd be operating in the red if she is paying the salary of the Steadholder Guard and her armsmen. And again, that is if she had the generous estimate of fifty million to give.

Depending on the timeline, if about a year after the prize money, good investments could have grown it considerably. But Honor would need about a year after the prize money before she officially took on the Steadholder role. And that is if she wasn't liable for back pay.

penny wrote:But if she had to pay her 400 guardsmen and she paid them a handsome salary of $100,000 that would eat up most of that fifty million to the tune of 40M. Leaving only ten million for other business. And the way business works you want to have reserves in case something catastrophic happens. See Sky Domes. And then there is the exorbitant cost of insurance; which I imagine is quite high on Grayson since war came to their doorsteps.

Only the personal guardsmen needed to be paid by her and I don't think there were more than 20 in the beginning. The rest of the 400 of the Harrington (Steading) Guard was paid by the Steading itself. That is, public finances instead of her personal one.

The Steadholders also probably draw income from the Steading too, which I am guessing more than covers her personal guardsmen. The Grayson law cannot mandate that the Steadholder keep a guard without providing the means to do that to even the most destitute Steadholders. Beyond that, I don't think she had any personal expense at all; she only started having those with the purchase of Harrington House in Landing and her residence on Grayson.

Also don't forget that war had started and we know economies of nations not being devastated by war do take off during such periods. Her investment agent was apparently very good at his job too, so he managed to make the $100M she started with grow a lot.

As for insurance in Sky Domes, the point of insurance is that you only pay a small portion of the actual awarded value. How the insurance actuarial tables worked for Sky Domes, I have no clue.

Depending on the timeline, if about a year after the prize money, good investments could have grown it considerably. But Honor would need about a year after the prize money before she officially took on the Steadholder role. And that is if she wasn't liable for back pay.

We may be forgetting that the creation of the Steading may have come with another chunk of money for her, some seed money to start the Steading and to set up the Steadholder. This is the world that she had just saved from annihilation and would later place a statue of her in front of the Conclave Hall. And don't forget that the Steadholders themselves are likely a very entitled lot and would not like the population to see any of them as destitute and poor.

Besides, there's also such a thing as loans. Sky Domes, as a company, is not going to be entirely funded by her initial capital - no company does that, at least not for long. Well-run companies usually pay for their assets with about 50% equity (the capital) and 50% debt. Not to mention she may have had other, minority investors. Didn't Klaus Hauptman invest there? I think it was only later, though.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:But if she had to pay her 400 guardsmen and she paid them a handsome salary of $100,000 that would eat up most of that fifty million to the tune of 40M. Leaving only ten million for other business. And the way business works you want to have reserves in case something catastrophic happens. See Sky Domes. And then there is the exorbitant cost of insurance; which I imagine is quite high on Grayson since war came to their doorsteps.

Only the personal guardsmen needed to be paid by her and I don't think there were more than 20 in the beginning. The rest of the 400 of the Harrington (Steading) Guard was paid by the Steading itself. That is, public finances instead of her personal one.

The Steadholders also probably draw income from the Steading too, which I am guessing more than covers her personal guardsmen. The Grayson law cannot mandate that the Steadholder keep a guard without providing the means to do that to even the most destitute Steadholders. Beyond that, I don't think she had any personal expense at all; she only started having those with the purchase of Harrington House in Landing and her residence on Grayson.

Also don't forget that war had started and we know economies of nations not being devastated by war do take off during such periods. Her investment agent was apparently very good at his job too, so he managed to make the $100M she started with grow a lot.

As for insurance in Sky Domes, the point of insurance is that you only pay a small portion of the actual awarded value. How the insurance actuarial tables worked for Sky Domes, I have no clue.

Depending on the timeline, if about a year after the prize money, good investments could have grown it considerably. But Honor would need about a year after the prize money before she officially took on the Steadholder role. And that is if she wasn't liable for back pay.

We may be forgetting that the creation of the Steading may have come with another chunk of money for her, some seed money to start the Steading and to set up the Steadholder. This is the world that she had just saved from annihilation and would later place a statue of her in front of the Conclave Hall. And don't forget that the Steadholders themselves are likely a very entitled lot and would not like the population to see any of them as destitute and poor.

Besides, there's also such a thing as loans. Sky Domes, as a company, is not going to be entirely funded by her initial capital - no company does that, at least not for long. Well-run companies usually pay for their assets with about 50% equity (the capital) and 50% debt. Not to mention she may have had other, minority investors. Didn't Klaus Hauptman invest there? I think it was only later, though.

I am pretty certain that it did. I seem to recall an initial investment in the steading as well. Just not the details. And that initial investment would undoubtedly come from the government.

But although Harrington Steading would definitely be responsible for the salaries of the Guard, Honor would probably be responsible for any deficit. Although government programs could help her out there. Anyway, do consider that the steading would have to start making money itself before it could be self sustaining. Hopefully all of the Steading's members brought income with them in the form of various investments; and salaries from positions they already had with them. And it isn't unlikely they had incentives in the form of huge tax breaks for joining a new steading.

But setting up a new steading isn't cheap. Think building a new city from the ground up. And supporting it. Water isn't cheap on Grayson. Utility lines. Power lines. All kinds of infrastructure.

I would imagine the steadholder guard had experience thus salaries they walked away from. With families they wouldn't want to take much of a pay cut. They love Harrington but they love their families more. So, $100,000 salary is reasonable.

Her personal armsmen is a different story. On the job 24/hours a day if they are off planet. The government must get rich off the overtime of just one armsman. LOL

I would hate to take a stab at the lordly salary an armsman must command. In fear he'd take a stab at me for insulting him. But I don't think Honor would hesitate to invest her entire $50M to the cause.


P.S. Bill collectors, If I forgot any expense, just get in line. The check's in the mail.

penny wrote:But setting up a new steading isn't cheap. Think building a new city from the ground up. And supporting it. Water isn't cheap on Grayson. Utility lines. Power lines. All kinds of infrastructure.

That should be financed by the Sword. Even if it's not direct "federal government" investment, the Harrington Steading could be simply getting loans and issuing bonds.

I would imagine the steadholder guard had experience thus salaries they walked away from. With families they wouldn't want to take much of a pay cut. They love Harrington but they love their families more. So, $100,000 salary is reasonable.

We have no idea how much 100,000 Manticore Dollars actually buys. Therefore, we don't know if that is reasonable or outrageously high.

The books in question were written in the first half of the 1990s, so assuming David used numbers that would have sounded right for an audience of the time, $100,000 isn't just a "reasonable" salary, it would be a great one. And that's on Manticore; on Grayson, a Manticore dollar could probably get you much further. To take again an aged comparison, I remember in the mid-2000s when we were able to hire good software developers in India for less than $30,000 a year. My point is that the exchange rates and cost of living may apply too. Heck, my first salary in very high cost-of-living European country around this time, was about $66,000, and I was not entry-level.

Finally, a dreadnought being valued at 32 billion dollars actually seems low to me. A USN aircraft carrier is priced at 10 to 15 billion US dollars today and those are barely the size of an old RMN light cruiser, like HMS Fearless. A highly advanced economy with 3 planets and the Junction to draw revenue from had only been able to build 307 capital ships in 60 years. Assuming the average cost was 50 billion to account for R&D and the fact that the RMN built 186 SDs and 121 DNs, that's only 250 billion per year in capital ship construction. The US defence budget in the early 1990s was around 300 billion USD (a time which included the First Gulf War) and the US did not have a tenth of the population that the MBS had in 1905 PD.

So I don't think you can judge the Manticore dollar to be roughly 1:1 to the USD even for 1990s values.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:But setting up a new steading isn't cheap. Think building a new city from the ground up. And supporting it. Water isn't cheap on Grayson. Utility lines. Power lines. All kinds of infrastructure.

That should be financed by the Sword. Even if it's not direct "federal government" investment, the Harrington Steading could be simply getting loans and issuing bonds.

I would imagine the steadholder guard had experience thus salaries they walked away from. With families they wouldn't want to take much of a pay cut. They love Harrington but they love their families more. So, $100,000 salary is reasonable.

We have no idea how much 100,000 Manticore Dollars actually buys. Therefore, we don't know if that is reasonable or outrageously high.

The books in question were written in the first half of the 1990s, so assuming David used numbers that would have sounded right for an audience of the time, $100,000 isn't just a "reasonable" salary, it would be a great one. And that's on Manticore; on Grayson, a Manticore dollar could probably get you much further. To take again an aged comparison, I remember in the mid-2000s when we were able to hire good software developers in India for less than $30,000 a year. My point is that the exchange rates and cost of living may apply too. Heck, my first salary in very high cost-of-living European country around this time, was about $66,000, and I was not entry-level.

Finally, a dreadnought being valued at 32 billion dollars actually seems low to me. A USN aircraft carrier is priced at 10 to 15 billion US dollars today and those are barely the size of an old RMN light cruiser, like HMS Fearless. A highly advanced economy with 3 planets and the Junction to draw revenue from had only been able to build 307 capital ships in 60 years. Assuming the average cost was 50 billion to account for R&D and the fact that the RMN built 186 SDs and 121 DNs, that's only 250 billion per year in capital ship construction. The US defence budget in the early 1990s was around 300 billion USD (a time which included the First Gulf War) and the US did not have a tenth of the population that the MBS had in 1905 PD.

So I don't think you can judge the Manticore dollar to be roughly 1:1 to the USD even for 1990s values.

Mathematical word problems. We all learned them in school. Take the relevant part of the information and apply it to the word problem.

You and I did the same thing. We used the $32B cost of a Dreadnaught and proceeded from there. But that is where our maths departed because statistics, as I have preached for quite some time, should be left in the hands of professionals.

Before we get to that. Let's establish a fact. The steel industry in the US and the world is a bloated industry. It is fraught with scandal and intrigue. It is very heavily dependent on global markets that are impacted by the state of the housing industry. The steel industry is one of the most unionized industries which helps drive the price of steel way up. One of our most iconic and oldest steel companies is U.S. Steel Company. U.S. Steel has just been purchased by Nippon of Japan. I am a Civil Engineer and I have followed the steel industry for quite some time. It is shameful and sad that steel companies in the US are falling like flies.

The reasons are many. Regulations are certainly not the least of it. The process pollutes the land and streams. Companies from foreign countries ike China and Japan are not as regulated as it is here. If at all. We can not compete in that area. China began producing more steel than all of the U.S. companies combined. For decades our steel companies were struggling to compete.

Much later it was found that foreign steel was inferior and had a tendency to crack when welded. The fractures wouldn't show up for days and it was oftentimes missed altogether. But by that time American steel companies had failed.

Our steel companies also failed to invest in newer technology. They were struggling and floundering and found it difficult to invest in modern technologies. That is a scandal in and of itself. American steel companies operated using the older technology of Blast Furnaces. The newer technology uses Electric Arc Furnaces. Unions, regulations, and China flooding the market with far cheaper steel slowly strangled American steel companies. U.S. Steel Company's sale will be finalized this month IINM.

Having said all of that, I would not have been surprised if even Superdreadnaughts are built much cheaper than one of our warships. The materials are much more plentiful in the HV. They are mined much easier and at a faster rate. Polluting the environment is not a worry. The latest steel producing technologies are in use. Automation. No unions. Etc. It is a no brainer. Steel is probably pennies on the dollar of Earth's cost.

BTW, I suspect that Grayson's cost of living is on a par with the MBS. Do consider I said that $100,000 is a handsome salary for Guardsmen initially. Later I said it was reasonable, simply to fend off any protests. Armsmen are another story. Some bodyguards here on Earth enjoy salaries much higher. One million to two million dollars yearly salary for one bodyguard. And a common salary of $250,000. So, to say $100,000 is great, or as I said handsome, might be putting the cart before the horse.

penny wrote:Having said all of that, I would not have been surprised if even Superdreadnaughts are built much cheaper than one of our warships. The materials are much more plentiful in the HV. They are mined much easier and at a faster rate. Polluting the environment is not a worry. The latest steel producing technologies are in use. Automation. No unions. Etc. It is a no brainer. Steel is probably pennies on the dollar of Earth's cost.

Why would there be no unions? Automation, yes.

Anyway, I disagree and do not think that a superdreadnough that is 80x the volume and mass of an USN aircraft carrier could be built for similar prices. Even if they are much more efficient, we are talking about a highly complex piece of machinery, with very sensitive parts like the impeller nodes, lensing arrays for lasers and grasers, etc. I'd be astonished if they cost one tenth as much per tonne, and that's still 8x more expensive.

In any case, since we don't have a dollar parity, there's no way we can compare the costs. We could only if David told us how much it cost the RMN to make a wet navy aircraft carrier.

My calculation was only based on the GDP. A USN aircraft carrier cost about 0.2% of the US annual GDP in the early 1990s. The MBS had a population over 10x larger than the US and I'd expect that their PPP GDP per capita is also several times over what it is in the US.

BTW, I suspect that Grayson's cost of living is on a par with the MBS. Do consider I said that $100,000 is a handsome salary for Guardsmen initially. Later I said it was reasonable, simply to fend off any protests. Armsmen are another story. Some bodyguards here on Earth enjoy salaries much higher. One million to two million dollars yearly salary for one bodyguard. And a common salary of $250,000. So, to say $100,000 is great, or as I said handsome, might be putting the cart before the horse.

And I disagree. The cost of living is probably high in Grayson... for Grayson salaries. But the exchange rate between the Manticore Dollar and the Grayson austin is probably very much in favour of the bigger and more advanced economy. So I'd really expect that a salary of $50k Manticore on Grayson to be a very nice one.

And mind you, we don't know how much $100k Manticore is worth on Manticore either.

penny wrote:BTW, I suspect that Grayson's cost of living is on a par with the MBS. Do consider I said that $100,000 is a handsome salary for Guardsmen initially. Later I said it was reasonable, simply to fend off any protests. Armsmen are another story. Some bodyguards here on Earth enjoy salaries much higher. One million to two million dollars yearly salary for one bodyguard. And a common salary of $250,000. So, to say $100,000 is great, or as I said handsome, might be putting the cart before the horse.

Maybe, maybe, it's caught up by 1922 PD (though I tend to doubt it). But it was nowhere close during Toll of Honor / Field of Dishonor.

Even 7ish years later, during the time Honor was on Hades High Admiral Wesley Mayhew explicitly points out that the Grayson standard of living is far lower than Manticore's. And that should translate pretty directly to a lower cost of living too; something the emphasized text touches on as well. More economic commitment should translate into higher cost.

Echoes of Honor wrote:"I know," Matthews agreed, "and I'm certainly not going to tell you that it's easy, but we do have some offsetting advantages. For one thing, your civilian standard of living and the economic and industrial commitment required to sustain it are much higher than ours." He waved a hand with a crooked smile. "I'm not saying your people are 'softer,' or that ours wouldn't love to have the same standard of living yours do. But the fact is that we never had it before, and we don't have it now. We're working on bringing ours up, but our people understand about making sacrifices to defend themselves—we had enough practice against Masada—and we've deliberately chosen to expand our military capacity at several times the rate at which we've expanded our civilian capacity. Even at the rate of civilian expansion we've allowed, our people's standard of living has gone up by something on the order of thirty percent—that's a planet-wide average—in just the last six years, so we're not hearing a lot of complaints.
"In the meantime," he flashed a smile at Caparelli, "we're actually showing a profit selling warships and components to the Star Kingdom!"
"You are?" Caparelli blinked, then looked sharply at Alexander, who shrugged.
"I haven't looked at the figures lately, Sir Thomas. I do know that whether Grayson is showing a profit or not, we're saving something like fifteen percent on the hardware we buy from them."
"I'm sure you are, Lord Alexander," Matthews said. "But when you crank our lower wages into the equation, our production costs are also much lower than yours. In fact, one of the reasons Lady Harrington was able to interest your Hauptman Cartel in investing in Blackbird was to get us more deeply involved in civilian construction, as well." He nodded at the view port again. "You can't see it from here, but over on the other side of the yard, we're building half a dozen Argonaut-class freighters for Hauptman. We happen to be building them at cost—as the down payment on a process which will end up allowing Grayson and Sky Domes to buy out Hauptman's share of the yard—but if it works out half as well as we expect it to, we should see orders start to come in from the other cartels over the next T-year or two."
"You're building all this and civilian ships too?" Caparelli demanded.
"Why not?" Matthews shrugged. "We're close to the limit of what the government can afford on our current warship programs, but thanks to Hauptman's initial investment—and Lady Harrington's, of course—our total building capacity is considerably higher than that. So we divert some of our labor force to civilian construction and build the ships for about sixty percent of what it would cost to build them in the Star Kingdom—assuming that any of your major builders could find the free yard capacity for them—and then Hauptman gets brand new freighters from us for eighty percent of what they would have paid a Manticoran builder.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:BTW, I suspect that Grayson's cost of living is on a par with the MBS. Do consider I said that $100,000 is a handsome salary for Guardsmen initially. Later I said it was reasonable, simply to fend off any protests. Armsmen are another story. Some bodyguards here on Earth enjoy salaries much higher. One million to two million dollars yearly salary for one bodyguard. And a common salary of $250,000. So, to say $100,000 is great, or as I said handsome, might be putting the cart before the horse.

Maybe, maybe, it's caught up by 1922 PD (though I tend to doubt it). But it was nowhere close during Toll of Honor / Field of Dishonor.

Even 7ish years later, during the time Honor was on Hades High Admiral Wesley Mayhew explicitly points out that the Grayson standard of living is far lower than Manticore's. And that should translate pretty directly to a lower cost of living too; something the emphasized text touches on as well. More economic commitment should translate into higher cost.

Echoes of Honor wrote:"I know," Matthews agreed, "and I'm certainly not going to tell you that it's easy, but we do have some offsetting advantages. For one thing, your civilian standard of living and the economic and industrial commitment required to sustain it are much higher than ours." He waved a hand with a crooked smile. "I'm not saying your people are 'softer,' or that ours wouldn't love to have the same standard of living yours do. But the fact is that we never had it before, and we don't have it now. We're working on bringing ours up, but our people understand about making sacrifices to defend themselves—we had enough practice against Masada—and we've deliberately chosen to expand our military capacity at several times the rate at which we've expanded our civilian capacity. Even at the rate of civilian expansion we've allowed, our people's standard of living has gone up by something on the order of thirty percent—that's a planet-wide average—in just the last six years, so we're not hearing a lot of complaints.
"In the meantime," he flashed a smile at Caparelli, "we're actually showing a profit selling warships and components to the Star Kingdom!"
"You are?" Caparelli blinked, then looked sharply at Alexander, who shrugged.
"I haven't looked at the figures lately, Sir Thomas. I do know that whether Grayson is showing a profit or not, we're saving something like fifteen percent on the hardware we buy from them."
"I'm sure you are, Lord Alexander," Matthews said. "But when you crank our lower wages into the equation, our production costs are also much lower than yours. In fact, one of the reasons Lady Harrington was able to interest your Hauptman Cartel in investing in Blackbird was to get us more deeply involved in civilian construction, as well." He nodded at the view port again. "You can't see it from here, but over on the other side of the yard, we're building half a dozen Argonaut-class freighters for Hauptman. We happen to be building them at cost—as the down payment on a process which will end up allowing Grayson and Sky Domes to buy out Hauptman's share of the yard—but if it works out half as well as we expect it to, we should see orders start to come in from the other cartels over the next T-year or two."
"You're building all this and civilian ships too?" Caparelli demanded.
"Why not?" Matthews shrugged. "We're close to the limit of what the government can afford on our current warship programs, but thanks to Hauptman's initial investment—and Lady Harrington's, of course—our total building capacity is considerably higher than that. So we divert some of our labor force to civilian construction and build the ships for about sixty percent of what it would cost to build them in the Star Kingdom—assuming that any of your major builders could find the free yard capacity for them—and then Hauptman gets brand new freighters from us for eighty percent of what they would have paid a Manticoran builder.

You're most likely right. I incorrectly assessed the economy during the time. But I'd think the two standards of living would have to come closer to each other eventually. But admittedly I'm carrying my own baggage into the assessment. I recall several decades ago when I was loaned to another company (I suppose one could say it was an ally of our own company). My salary as a junior was much higher than the same senior position there. They had to up their ante considerably. But they had no qualms about it. They needed my expertise and they didn't second guess it.

Grayson needs Manticoran workers. They will be loaned. It isn't right that Manticore pay them, and Grayson has to match their pay. These people will be there for an extended amount of time. There will be problems across the board if the costs and standards of living remain too far apart.

penny wrote:Grayson needs Manticoran workers. They will be loaned. It isn't right that Manticore pay them, and Grayson has to match their pay. These people will be there for an extended amount of time. There will be problems across the board if the costs and standards of living remain too far apart.

They could have been "expats" in the sense that they were still in the RMN or some Manticore company payroll for the duration. For example, if Blackbird contracted the Hauptman Cartel to help build the yard, then the people Hauptman sent there would be paid by Hauptman using Manticore salaries.

For those that were transferred fully to the GSN or to Grayson companies, they should expect Grayson salaries. Indeed you need to offer an incentive to get those people to make the move, but salary is not the only thing. Some may have decided to move because of Grayson's laws on marriage, for example. With the explosive economic growth, companies would be expanding rapidly and promotions would be coming fast and furiously to competent people. Likewise for a lot of ex-RMN personnel who would have seen a faster path to promotions and responsibilities, following the example of a certain Captain (S.G.) that was promoted to full Admiral:

Flag in Exile, ch. 7 wrote:"All right. If you really need one somewhat less than mint-condition captain, I suppose you've got her. What were you planning to do with her?"

"Well," Matthews tried to hide his exultation at her response, but it was hard, especially when her treecat flipped its ears and wrikled its muzzle at him in an unmistakable grin. "The yard will finish refitting the Terrible next month. She's the last of the prizes Admiral White Haven turned over to us, so I thought it would be fitting to give you her."

"A superdreadnought?" Honor cocked her head, then chuckled. "That's quite an inducement, High Admiral. I've never skippered anything bigger than a battlecruiser. Talk about a jump in seniority!"

"I don't think you quite understand, My Lady. I don't intend to put you in command of Terrible. Or perhaps I should say, not directly in command of her."

"I beg your pardon?" Honor blinked. "I thought you said—"

"I said I was giving you Terrible," Matthews said, "but not as her CO. That will be up to your flag captain, Admiral Harrington. I'm giving you the entire First Battle Squadron."

(This is one of my favourite passages, alongside "Hamish you're too easy! We gave her Nike last week.")

Like Honor, some others may have run afoul of political shenanigans in their home navies, so being offered a second chance can be enough, because unlike Honor, they may not have been so good that the RMN would definitely want them back as soon as practical.

And besides, if you're living on Grayson, you don't need a Manticore salary. You may be able to afford a similar or even better life style with a nominally smaller salary, given that the cost of living may be lower too.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Grayson needs Manticoran workers. They will be loaned. It isn't right that Manticore pay them, and Grayson has to match their pay. These people will be there for an extended amount of time. There will be problems across the board if the costs and standards of living remain too far apart.

They could have been "expats" in the sense that they were still in the RMN or some Manticore company payroll for the duration. For example, if Blackbird contracted the Hauptman Cartel to help build the yard, then the people Hauptman sent there would be paid by Hauptman using Manticore salaries.

For those that were transferred fully to the GSN or to Grayson companies, they should expect Grayson salaries. Indeed you need to offer an incentive to get those people to make the move, but salary is not the only thing. Some may have decided to move because of Grayson's laws on marriage, for example. With the explosive economic growth, companies would be expanding rapidly and promotions would be coming fast and furiously to competent people. Likewise for a lot of ex-RMN personnel who would have seen a faster path to promotions and responsibilities, following the example of a certain Captain (S.G.) that was promoted to full Admiral:

Flag in Exile, ch. 7 wrote:"All right. If you really need one somewhat less than mint-condition captain, I suppose you've got her. What were you planning to do with her?"

"Well," Matthews tried to hide his exultation at her response, but it was hard, especially when her treecat flipped its ears and wrikled its muzzle at him in an unmistakable grin. "The yard will finish refitting the Terrible next month. She's the last of the prizes Admiral White Haven turned over to us, so I thought it would be fitting to give you her."

"A superdreadnought?" Honor cocked her head, then chuckled. "That's quite an inducement, High Admiral. I've never skippered anything bigger than a battlecruiser. Talk about a jump in seniority!"

"I don't think you quite understand, My Lady. I don't intend to put you in command of Terrible. Or perhaps I should say, not directly in command of her."

"I beg your pardon?" Honor blinked. "I thought you said—"

"I said I was giving you Terrible," Matthews said, "but not as her CO. That will be up to your flag captain, Admiral Harrington. I'm giving you the entire First Battle Squadron."

(This is one of my favourite passages, alongside "Hamish you're too easy! We gave her Nike last week.")

Like Honor, some others may have run afoul of political shenanigans in their home navies, so being offered a second chance can be enough, because unlike Honor, they may not have been so good that the RMN would definitely want them back as soon as practical.

And besides, if you're living on Grayson, you don't need a Manticore salary. You may be able to afford a similar or even better life style with a nominally smaller salary, given that the cost of living may be lower too.

That is one of my favorite passages as well. Pound for pound and page for page that book is chock full of goodies.

Anyway, a bit of a quick detour and an apology. Two questions.

1. Why was it possible for Grayson to refit Peep Superdreadnaughts? Isn't an SD the hardest to refit with so many extra layers and thickness of steel to work with?

2. Why wouldn't Honor's promotion to Admiral in the GSN mean an automatic promotion to Admiral in the RMN? Ordinarily, Grayson's Admirals are accepted as Admirals aren't they?