Malign suicide protocols and regular stress?

penny wrote:The nanites are hardly a problem. That is something that is created in a lab. Labs and their research are easily destroyed. It is plausible that it might not have been something the entire navy was privy of. It is a very compartmentalized and classified weapon. After all, it cannot be allowed to fall into the wrong hands. So the highest of clearance would be expected. NEED TO KNOW!

Only the forts were destroyed at Galton, so unless that is where the labs were (which is unlikely, something like that would be more isolated) there should be evidence.

You are ignoring that Galton needed to be proved to be the source of all evil; which means that documentation needed to be found, so that there would be NO question about a second source. All the other labs and factories and documentation will be found. It will be suspicious, if nothing is found about the nanites. Yes, there needed to be high security; but with the GA examining everything, anything behind a security wall should still be found.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:The nanites are hardly a problem. That is something that is created in a lab. Labs and their research are easily destroyed. It is plausible that it might not have been something the entire navy was privy of. It is a very compartmentalized and classified weapon. After all, it cannot be allowed to fall into the wrong hands. So the highest of clearance would be expected. NEED TO KNOW!

Only the forts were destroyed at Galton, so unless that is where the labs were (which is unlikely, something like that would be more isolated) there should be evidence.

You are ignoring that Galton needed to be proved to be the source of all evil; which means that documentation needed to be found, so that there would be NO question about a second source. All the other labs and factories and documentation will be found. It will be suspicious, if nothing is found about the nanites. Yes, there needed to be high security; but with the GA examining everything, anything behind a security wall should still be found.

Still not a problem. The evidence can be faked. A manipulated crime scene. It is much more difficult to manipulate and fake the existence of ships and hardware than genetic research. In the pre computer days one would only need to leave evidence of a manilla folder with the words NANITE RESEARCH on it, badly burned with everything else.

penny wrote:Still not a problem. The evidence can be faked. A manipulated crime scene. It is much more difficult to manipulate and fake the existence of ships and hardware than genetic research. In the pre computer days one would only need to leave evidence of a manilla folder with the words NANITE RESEARCH on it, badly burned with everything else.

If everyone were as ready to believe as you, then it would not be a problem. But all genetic evidence is going to be examined by experts in the field and if it proves to be faked, then Galton is a fraud. Even in the old days, if everything that an enemy had is captured and only one key bit is missing; then the inference would be that someone took it elsewhere. A single, empty manila folder is not going to ease suspicions, when nothing else is burned.

penny wrote:Still not a problem. The evidence can be faked. A manipulated crime scene. It is much more difficult to manipulate and fake the existence of ships and hardware than genetic research. In the pre computer days one would only need to leave evidence of a manilla folder with the words NANITE RESEARCH on it, badly burned with everything else.

tlb wrote:If everyone were as ready to believe as you, then it would not be a problem. But all genetic evidence is going to be examined by experts in the field and if it proves to be faked, then Galton is a fraud. Even in the old days, if everything that an enemy had is captured and only one key bit is missing; then the inference would be that someone took it elsewhere. A single, empty manila folder is not going to ease suspicions, when nothing else is burned.

It's not impossible to do what penny is suggesting... just terribly difficult. There needs to be some research found and most of it needs to be true. It doesn't have to be all true, with some misleading bits that would send anyone trying to recreate the nanites or an antidote down the wrong path. But it has to sound true and be verifiably true to an expert investigating it, because you can be sure that the GA will get the best geneticists from Beowulf to look into this.

Additionally, there needs to be visible destruction of the data to account for gaps and the fact that it doesn't work. This needs to be so carefully done that it would pass scrutiny of data forensic experts too, who would be trying to prove real data from fake, counter-intelligence data.

It has to have been kept accurate up to the last uses in the galaxy at large, where the GA would know of the symptoms and trace indicators. So this not a one-and-done job; it needs to have been periodically updated from that courier from Darius that few knew came from Darius that was inserting data into the Galton databases.

And the hardest thing of all: the GA needs to capture the lab technicians and geneticists who remember having worked on successful nanites. Even if I grant the MAlign the previous paragraphs (and I don't), this one here will fall apart. The geneticists and technicians cannot truly remember this, under interrogation supervised by treecat, unless it was true. The Alamo Contingency may have been counting on a great loss of life to account for those people missing, but it looks like that did not happen.

There's one other option, though: the nanites may have been entirely done on Mesa. It would make sense to direct the spy operations from there, as it's one wormhole away from Visigoth. There's little need for Galton to need them, because they weren't going to a lot of places. We do know Mesa had it, because Firebrand was supposed to get his on a visit to the Gamma Centre.

I think that's likely. But either way, we only have two options: the research on the nanites is captured mostly intact, or another piece of the domino falls on the cover story.

penny wrote:Still not a problem. The evidence can be faked. A manipulated crime scene. It is much more difficult to manipulate and fake the existence of ships and hardware than genetic research. In the pre computer days one would only need to leave evidence of a manilla folder with the words NANITE RESEARCH on it, badly burned with everything else.

tlb wrote:If everyone were as ready to believe as you, then it would not be a problem. But all genetic evidence is going to be examined by experts in the field and if it proves to be faked, then Galton is a fraud. Even in the old days, if everything that an enemy had is captured and only one key bit is missing; then the inference would be that someone took it elsewhere. A single, empty manila folder is not going to ease suspicions, when nothing else is burned.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It's not impossible to do what penny is suggesting... just terribly difficult. There needs to be some research found and most of it needs to be true. It doesn't have to be all true, with some misleading bits that would send anyone trying to recreate the nanites or an antidote down the wrong path. But it has to sound true and be verifiably true to an expert investigating it, because you can be sure that the GA will get the best geneticists from Beowulf to look into this.

Additionally, there needs to be visible destruction of the data to account for gaps and the fact that it doesn't work. This needs to be so carefully done that it would pass scrutiny of data forensic experts too, who would be trying to prove real data from fake, counter-intelligence data.

It has to have been kept accurate up to the last uses in the galaxy at large, where the GA would know of the symptoms and trace indicators. So this not a one-and-done job; it needs to have been periodically updated from that courier from Darius that few knew came from Darius that was inserting data into the Galton databases.

And the hardest thing of all: the GA needs to capture the lab technicians and geneticists who remember having worked on successful nanites. Even if I grant the MAlign the previous paragraphs (and I don't), this one here will fall apart. The geneticists and technicians cannot truly remember this, under interrogation supervised by treecat, unless it was true. The Alamo Contingency may have been counting on a great loss of life to account for those people missing, but it looks like that did not happen.

There's one other option, though: the nanites may have been entirely done on Mesa. It would make sense to direct the spy operations from there, as it's one wormhole away from Visigoth. There's little need for Galton to need them, because they weren't going to a lot of places. We do know Mesa had it, because Firebrand was supposed to get his on a visit to the Gamma Centre.

I think that's likely. But either way, we only have two options: the research on the nanites is captured mostly intact, or another piece of the domino falls on the cover story.

Yes, the nanites were known and utilized at Mesa; but when the inner Onion evacuated Mesa this information had to come with them, since it will still remain in use in the agents sent out into the galaxy (even if it were not needed in Galton).

If Galton was the only Malign hideout and responsible for every bad thing, then that actually makes security much easier. In Galton there is the ruling class (the aristocrats), whose knowledge increases with rank, and the worker class (the serfs), who only know enough to do what they are told. Anything not required, is forbidden. So security just needs to be signs stating the anyone not part of this group is to stay out. That means there is no need for record destruction and with the death of the entire ruling class in the forts, no one left to try and hide things. Record destruction would be taken as a sign that there are still secrets useful to someone out there somewhere.

Any and all knowledge of the nanite suicide protocols will be taken to places like the labs at Beowulf and rigorously tested. If they cannot transfer a learned response to a specific stimulus from one volunteer to another (ignorant of stimulus and expected response), then they will know that there is something wrong with the data.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It's not impossible to do what penny is suggesting... just terribly difficult. There needs to be some research found and most of it needs to be true. It doesn't have to be all true, with some misleading bits that would send anyone trying to recreate the nanites or an antidote down the wrong path. But it has to sound true and be verifiably true to an expert investigating it, because you can be sure that the GA will get the best geneticists from Beowulf to look into this.

Additionally, there needs to be visible destruction of the data to account for gaps and the fact that it doesn't work. This needs to be so carefully done that it would pass scrutiny of data forensic experts too, who would be trying to prove real data from fake, counter-intelligence data.

It has to have been kept accurate up to the last uses in the galaxy at large, where the GA would know of the symptoms and trace indicators. So this not a one-and-done job; it needs to have been periodically updated from that courier from Darius that few knew came from Darius that was inserting data into the Galton databases.

And the hardest thing of all: the GA needs to capture the lab technicians and geneticists who remember having worked on successful nanites. Even if I grant the MAlign the previous paragraphs (and I don't), this one here will fall apart. The geneticists and technicians cannot truly remember this, under interrogation supervised by treecat, unless it was true. The Alamo Contingency may have been counting on a great loss of life to account for those people missing, but it looks like that did not happen.

If Galton was supposed to be a source of the nanite program then tha MAlign needs to do all that; and one further thing.

They need to make sure all evidence of their coverup is perfectly hidden.

That nobody involved in faking the records after the fact gets picked up and interrogated, that no records about the need to forge this info is found, that no studies are found going into which bits to artfully escape destruction and which bits must actually be obliterated to hid that this is a ruse. (Heck, that there aren't an unexplained raft of deaths of people who could have done the cover-up).

Jonathan_S wrote:So now I think that the GA has four potential major clue letting them know that Galton wasn't the final base of the MAlign.
1) No evidence of the spider ships that Simones told them the MAlign had. (And depending on whether Galton had streak ships lack of them may also slot in here)

2) Sensor records showing that the graser weapons used to defend Galton were different, and weaker, than those used in Oyster Bay.

3) Some folks identified as alive after they'd supposedly been nuked on Mesa; who never show up on Galton.

4) No evidence of Galton being the source of the MAlign nanites; which Manticore and Haven each have different evidence of the existence of.

Some of those are weaker than others; but collectively should be quickly convincing that Galton likely isn't what it purported to be

I agree in general that the intelligence guys will have suspicions whether Galton really is the end. But:

3) This link is a bit weak as it's probably only very few people which could be traced - we know some have been killed on the way by their guard dogs, e. G. by exploding a ship, so they could have arrived nowhere, instead of somewhere else.

4) Nanites have been produced in the Gamma Center on Mesa. The suicide kind of nanites were mainly used by field agents and other people knowing secrets which could fall into enemy hands. And the assassination nanites have only been used in very small quantities, injected without the victim's knowledge. None of those peuple needs to know about Galton, nor travel there to get the injection. Strictly speaking, there's no need for both those types on Galton, at least apparently. Of course, one would expect that the knowledge should have been transferred to Galton, but strictly speaking, it's not a hard necessity, as the Gamma Center could take the blame for those.

markusschaber wrote:Nanites have been produced in the Gamma Center on Mesa. The suicide kind of nanites were mainly used by field agents and other people knowing secrets which could fall into enemy hands. And the assassination nanites have only been used in very small quantities, injected without the victim's knowledge. None of those people needs to know about Galton, nor travel there to get the injection. Strictly speaking, there's no need for both those types on Galton, at least apparently. Of course, one would expect that the knowledge should have been transferred to Galton, but strictly speaking, it's not a hard necessity, as the Gamma Center could take the blame for those.

The Gamma Center was a think tank, not a biological research center. Unless you think that Galton will never need new field agents, there is a "hard necessity" that the knowledge of the creation and use of the suicide nanites was brought to Galton. Unless Galton is NOT the one and only secret hiding place of the Malign, then everything that the Malign has been known to use (with the exception of the spider drive, which must be explained away) must be found at Galton.

In particular: if false data about suicide nanites is planted at Galton, testing will reveal that the false data does not lead to the observed results.