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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jul 18, 2024 11:01 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:For G-torps on Sharks it does seem like a 4 Mton ship should have room for oversize launch tubes for something even twice as big as a Mk23. Though I'm guessing that this meant twice the exterior dimensions; not just twice the volume.


Which would make that 8 times the volume.

But its possible that the g-torp wasn't finalized until after the test-bed Sharks were designed and laid down; or possibly not even until after they were built. And it must not have seemed a major priority to do massive overhauls to squeeze in oversize missile tubes and handling equipment into ships that weren't ever supposed to be used beyond testing and wargames.


That doesn't make sense either. The Sharks were designed to be a testbed for the Leonard Detweiler class, so presumably the goals of the LDs were already known at the time. Your paragraph is not impossible, but it would mean that the design and mission profiles of the LD changed very recently, which is its own kind of nightmare for the MAN. But more importantly, if launching torpedoes wasn't the original goal, then what was?

At this point, I have to simply suspend disbelief and accept as gospel what was written.

Now the Sharks do have pod bays for all the Cataphracts they carried; but I could easily see there being some critical dimension that prevented those from fitting pods that could hold a weapon that's significantly longer than the missiles the original pod dimensions were based around. (If all the pods have to travel at some point through an elevator, or curved track, then a longer pod wouldn't fit)


Cataphract-A and Bs, mind you. The Sharks couldn't have been designed to carry Cataphract-C (the one carrying the capital ship regular missile) because those were themselves too new an innovation. Sure, the Galton spies had been working on Haven-Manticore war details as early as Buttercup unveiled the MDMs, but I doubt the design had been updated for the larger C variant. Moreover, the Cs were too big for SLN ships of the wall, so presumably of a size similar to the torpedoes themselves.

But again my question of why not. If this is a testbed to launch torpedoes from and you're going to build a 4-million tonne monster anyway, why not do it properly? It doesn't seem right either that you needed a battleship-sized ship to test the spider itself.

I'd have expected the testbed to incorporate missile tubes but no magazines. Those are a known quantity to solve.

And that's assuming you need a tube at all. As the SBs have shown, you can launch them from a regular payload bay: push them out on a tractor and turn them on. You may not want something as weak as a cargo bay door, but instead an armoured chase pod bay door, like SD(P)s. If Manticore and Grayson could build BC-sized pod layers at the 1.25 million tonne range, the MAN should have been able to do the same at 3.2x that.

So 'almost twice the size of a Mk23' just seems too small compared to the difficulties they've talked about with them. Without that line I'd have guessed maybe 40-60% the size of a Shrike. (Which wouldn't have sounded insane; as they also carry a large, if not as large, energy mount plus a very volume intensive drive system, and a lot of volume of plasma capacitors - though don't need space for crew, missiles, or CMs)


That would make more sense. The volume of a Shark is similar to the volume of a CLAC. And CLACs are fragile enough with their LAC doors, so a Shark would not have been a good combatant at that size range.

Another datum that fails to fit is the size of the Silver Bullets, which are bigger than Ghost Riders and presumably bigger than the torpedoes. Ghost Riders aren't as big as LACs.
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Thu Jul 18, 2024 12:00 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Another datum that fails to fit is the size of the Silver Bullets, which are bigger than Ghost Riders and presumably bigger than the torpedoes. Ghost Riders aren't as big as LACs.

Aren't the Silver Bullets described as fitting in a pair of cargo boxes each?
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jul 18, 2024 12:21 pm

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tlb wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Another datum that fails to fit is the size of the Silver Bullets, which are bigger than Ghost Riders and presumably bigger than the torpedoes. Ghost Riders aren't as big as LACs.

Aren't the Silver Bullets described as fitting in a pair of cargo boxes each?


Sure. But how does that relate to the size of torpedoes and LACs?
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Thu Jul 18, 2024 1:09 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Another datum that fails to fit is the size of the Silver Bullets, which are bigger than Ghost Riders and presumably bigger than the torpedoes. Ghost Riders aren't as big as LACs.
tlb wrote:Aren't the Silver Bullets described as fitting in a pair of cargo boxes each?
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Sure. But how does that relate to the size of torpedoes and LACs?

Not long after the paragraph in UH (page 403 in hardback) that talks about putting the power packs from two Wraiths together, which made it about 2 to 3 times bigger than the G-torpedo, which was already twice the size of a Manticoran Mark 23 MDM, there is this size statement:

68 meters long and 11.5 meters in diameter, but the final version might be a couple of meters longer, because the nose section had not been finalized.

Each fits into what looks like a pair of Rhino-class heavy lift containers glued end to end (next page). That size is too big for even an LD's torpedo tube.
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Re: ?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jul 18, 2024 1:16 pm

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tlb wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Another datum that fails to fit is the size of the Silver Bullets, which are bigger than Ghost Riders and presumably bigger than the torpedoes. Ghost Riders aren't as big as LACs.
tlb wrote:Aren't the Silver Bullets described as fitting in a pair of cargo boxes each?
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Sure. But how does that relate to the size of torpedoes and LACs?

Not long after the paragraph in UH (page 403 in hardback) that talks about putting the power packs from two Wraiths together, which made it about 2 to 3 times bigger than the G-torpedo, which was already twice the size of a Manticoran Mark 23 MDM, there is this size statement:

68 meters long and 11.5 meters in diameter, but the final version might be a couple of meters longer, because the nose section had not been finalized.

Each fits into what looks like a pair of Rhino-class heavy lift containers glued end to end (next page). That size is too big for even an LD's torpedo tube.


A Shrike is 71m x 20m x 20m, so a Silver bullet would require a LAC bay to transport (but you could probably fit a cluster of 4 in each bay.)
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Thu Jul 18, 2024 1:40 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Another datum that fails to fit is the size of the Silver Bullets, which are bigger than Ghost Riders and presumably bigger than the torpedoes. Ghost Riders aren't as big as LACs.
tlb wrote:Aren't the Silver Bullets described as fitting in a pair of cargo boxes each?
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Sure. But how does that relate to the size of torpedoes and LACs?
tlb wrote:Not long after the paragraph in UH (page 403 in hardback) that talks about putting the power packs from two Wraiths together, which made it about 2 to 3 times bigger than the G-torpedo, which was already twice the size of a Manticoran Mark 23 MDM, there is this size statement:

68 meters long and 11.5 meters in diameter, but the final version might be a couple of meters longer, because the nose section had not been finalized.

Each fits into what looks like a pair of Rhino-class heavy lift containers glued end to end (next page). That size is too big for even an LD's torpedo tube.
Theemile wrote:A Shrike is 71m x 20m x 20m, so a Silver bullet would require a LAC bay to transport (but you could probably fit a cluster of 4 in each bay.)

Not quite? Two side by side take up 23 meters; 3 meters more than the width of a LAC, so it depends how much extra space is in a bay. Three or four together require even more space (there is a gap in the center).
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Re: ?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jul 18, 2024 2:24 pm

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tlb wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Another datum that fails to fit is the size of the Silver Bullets, which are bigger than Ghost Riders and presumably bigger than the torpedoes. Ghost Riders aren't as big as LACs.
tlb wrote:Aren't the Silver Bullets described as fitting in a pair of cargo boxes each?
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Sure. But how does that relate to the size of torpedoes and LACs?
tlb wrote:Not long after the paragraph in UH (page 403 in hardback) that talks about putting the power packs from two Wraiths together, which made it about 2 to 3 times bigger than the G-torpedo, which was already twice the size of a Manticoran Mark 23 MDM, there is this size statement:

68 meters long and 11.5 meters in diameter, but the final version might be a couple of meters longer, because the nose section had not been finalized.

Each fits into what looks like a pair of Rhino-class heavy lift containers glued end to end (next page). That size is too big for even an LD's torpedo tube.
Theemile wrote:A Shrike is 71m x 20m x 20m, so a Silver bullet would require a LAC bay to transport (but you could probably fit a cluster of 4 in each bay.)

Not quite? Two side by side take up 23 meters; 3 meters more than the width of a LAC, so it depends how much extra space is in a bay. Three or four together require even more space (there is a gap in the center).


Depends on the Gap in the LAC bay around the LAC - we have to assume there is some - if they do fit, it would be tight.

Still - big weapons.....
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jul 18, 2024 2:48 pm

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Theemile wrote:Depends on the Gap in the LAC bay around the LAC - we have to assume there is some - if they do fit, it would be tight.

Still - big weapons.....


The LAC bays are meant to service the LACs, so there needs to be clearance on both sides and in the front to get personnel and equipment through. Remember Scotty and Harkness installed the first bowwall while embarged. I'd expect no less than 3 metres on each side.

Either way, even if just one fits, a Shark has about the same mass as a CLAC. A Minotaur-class CLAC has 100 bays, so why could it only carry torpedoes (which are smaller than the SBs) externally?

True, the proportions of a spider-drive ship are very different from the CLAC. The former is probably much longer and thinner than the latter, so it has a bigger area/volume ratio and more space to mount the spider tractors. The only explanation I can come up with is that it's actually so thin that having torpedo bays would mean it's structurally unstable.

Let's remember that thing is under a near-constant 150-gravity stress. The grav plates alleviate, but grav plates only work where installed and probably have a limited range of effect. The rest of the ship's structure and superstructure isn't under the plates' effect.
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Re: ?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jul 18, 2024 3:14 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:Depends on the Gap in the LAC bay around the LAC - we have to assume there is some - if they do fit, it would be tight.

Still - big weapons.....


The LAC bays are meant to service the LACs, so there needs to be clearance on both sides and in the front to get personnel and equipment through. Remember Scotty and Harkness installed the first bowwall while embarged. I'd expect no less than 3 metres on each side.

Either way, even if just one fits, a Shark has about the same mass as a CLAC. A Minotaur-class CLAC has 100 bays, so why could it only carry torpedoes (which are smaller than the SBs) externally?

True, the proportions of a spider-drive ship are very different from the CLAC. The former is probably much longer and thinner than the latter, so it has a bigger area/volume ratio and more space to mount the spider tractors. The only explanation I can come up with is that it's actually so thin that having torpedo bays would mean it's structurally unstable.

Let's remember that thing is under a near-constant 150-gravity stress. The grav plates alleviate, but grav plates only work where installed and probably have a limited range of effect. The rest of the ship's structure and superstructure isn't under the plates' effect.


The Minotaur and Hydra designs are Mid sized DNs (6.18 and 6.15 Mtons respectively), and "Fat" at that (about a 5% more Beam and Draught than a similar sized DN).

We've never been given the exact mass (or dimensions) of the Sharks, just "Between BB and DN size", which is somewhere between 4 and 5.5 Mtons, depending on how you measure it. So a RMN CLAC is at least 15% more massive than a Shark, and possibly 50%+ larger, and most likely much beamier than the Shark.

I wish MaxxQ was still around, I'd ask him if he had any Spider ship drawings he could share.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Thu Jul 18, 2024 3:19 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Either way, even if just one fits, a Shark has about the same mass as a CLAC. A Minotaur-class CLAC has 100 bays, so why could it only carry torpedoes (which are smaller than the SBs) externally?

We know the Shark is a pod-layer, so we presume that everything inside is optimized for the pods. Perhaps this means the G-torpedoes simply would not fit inside.
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