Spoilers - Toll of Honor

Brigade XO wrote:Young's father and his political allies (and those he forced to publicly side with his positions) used the requirements for officially declaring war as a way to get Pavel not to be hung and to drive various persons to support the political factions that gave him power. That and cause his political enemies pain, frustration and political damage. Not all of that was political, some of it was personal for ever so many reasons including he was a despicable person. Ok that is a personal assessment but it isn't wrong.

BTW, would the declaration of war cause the military code of justice to allow for a swifter form of judgement and punishment?

Cowardice in the face of the enemy during a time of war could be punished by summary execution, right?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:BTW, would the declaration of war cause the military code of justice to allow for a swifter form of judgement and punishment?

Cowardice in the face of the enemy during a time of war could be punished by summary execution, right?

I do not think so, you still have to be found guilty by a court martial. Pavel Young already faced the harshest charges possible, in a time of "peace".

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Young's father and his political allies (and those he forced to publicly side with his positions) used the requirements for officially declaring war as a way to get Pavel not to be hung and to drive various persons to support the political factions that gave him power. That and cause his political enemies pain, frustration and political damage. Not all of that was political, some of it was personal for ever so many reasons including he was a despicable person. Ok that is a personal assessment but it isn't wrong.

BTW, would the declaration of war cause the military code of justice to allow for a swifter form of judgement and punishment?

Cowardice in the face of the enemy during a time of war could be punished by summary execution, right?

That is what Young was guilty of. Whether there was an officially declared war on the global stage or not does not matter. Locally during that heat of battle it was war! Kill! Or be killed!

That is why in everyones mind there was no doubt that Young should be fried. It was an open and shut case in everyones mind. That is why it was said that the navy had no choice but to execute him.

Make no bones about it, during the attack of Pearl Harbor, it was war! Even though war had not been declared. And anyone running away from his duty could have been court martialed.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:BTW, would the declaration of war cause the military code of justice to allow for a swifter form of judgement and punishment?

Cowardice in the face of the enemy during a time of war could be punished by summary execution, right?

penny wrote:That is what Young was guilty of. Whether there was an officially declared war on the global stage or not does not matter. Locally during that heat of battle it was war! Kill! Or be killed!

That is why in everyones mind there was no doubt that Young should be fried. It was an open and shut case in everyones mind. That is why it was said that the navy had no choice but to execute him.

Make no bones about it, during the attack of Pearl Harbor, it was war! Even though war had not been declared. And anyone running away from his duty could have been court martialed.

That Pavel Young should have been executed is not the question. Many people agreed with that, except for those that believed that Honor was guilty of not transferring command.

What is NOT correct is thinking that in war time, summary executions are okay. I very much doubt that is permitted under Manticoran law.

Note that at Camp Charon, in Echoes of Honor, there were actual trials of those State Sec personnel that had broken Haven's laws. Also Honor threatened Admiral Styles with charges at a court martial that could lead to execution. She definitely did not threaten him with immediate execution.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:BTW, would the declaration of war cause the military code of justice to allow for a swifter form of judgement and punishment?

Cowardice in the face of the enemy during a time of war could be punished by summary execution, right?

Even if it did, that would have no effect on Young's court martial as no declaration existed at the time of his actions.

I don't know whether having a formal declaration in place beforehand would have opened him up to further charges, but lack of it offered no defense against the 5 charges against him - and they already included behavior in the face of the enemy. (Including some he was found guilty of; the 3 out of 5)

The specification of charges:

1) "you did violate the Twenty-Third Article of War, in that you did quit the formation of Task Group Hancock-Zero-Zero-One, thereby breaking off action against the enemy, without orders so to do." (Guilty by a 4 to 2 vote)

2) "you did subsequently violate the Twenty-Sixth Article of War, in that you did disobey a direct order from the flagship of Task Group Hancock-Zero-Zero-One by disregarding repeated instructions to return to formation." (Guilty by a 4 to 2 vote)

3) "in direct consequence of the actions alleged in the first and second specifications of these charges, the integrity of the missile defense net of Task Force Hancock-Zero-Zero-One was compromised by the withdrawal of the units under your command, thereby exposing other units of the task group to concentrated enemy fire, which, in consequence of your actions, inflicted severe damage and heavy loss of life upon them." (Guilty by a 4 to 2 vote)

4) "that the actions and consequences alleged in the first, second, and third specifications of these charges constitute and did result from personal cowardice." (Unable to reach a verdict; 3 to 3 vote)

5) "the actions alleged in the first and second specifications of these charges constitute desertion in the face of the enemy as defined under the Fourteenth, Fifteenth, and Nineteenth Articles of War, and, as such, an act of high treason under the Articles of War and the Constitution of this Star Kingdom." (Unable to reach a verdict; 3 to 3 vote)

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:BTW, would the declaration of war cause the military code of justice to allow for a swifter form of judgement and punishment?

Cowardice in the face of the enemy during a time of war could be punished by summary execution, right?

penny wrote:That is what Young was guilty of. Whether there was an officially declared war on the global stage or not does not matter. Locally during that heat of battle it was war! Kill! Or be killed!

That is why in everyones mind there was no doubt that Young should be fried. It was an open and shut case in everyones mind. That is why it was said that the navy had no choice but to execute him.

Make no bones about it, during the attack of Pearl Harbor, it was war! Even though war had not been declared. And anyone running away from his duty could have been court martialed.

That Pavel Young should have been executed is not the question. Many people agreed with that, except for those that believed that Honor was guilty of not transferring command.

What is NOT correct is thinking that in war time, summary executions are okay. I very much doubt that is permitted under Manticoran law.

Note that at Camp Charon, in Echoes of Honor, there were actual trials of those State Sec personnel that had broken Haven's laws. Also Honor threatened Admiral Styles with charges at a court martial that could lead to execution. She definitely did not threaten him with immediate execution.

I agree wholeheartedly! Go through the motions and give him his perfunctory trial.

Then summarily execute him.

tlb wrote:That Pavel Young should have been executed is not the question. Many people agreed with that, except for those that believed that Honor was guilty of not transferring command.

What is NOT correct is thinking that in war time, summary executions are okay. I very much doubt that is permitted under Manticoran law.

Note that at Camp Charon, in Echoes of Honor, there were actual trials of those State Sec personnel that had broken Haven's laws. Also Honor threatened Admiral Styles with charges at a court martial that could lead to execution. She definitely did not threaten him with immediate execution.

Ok, so what it might change is that during wartime, the court martial could be convened with whatever officers were present at Hancock, due to the exigencies of war.

One of the reasons his trial was delayed, as we learnt in Toll of Honor, is that HMS Nike continued operations for a few more months out of Hancock before rotating back to Manticore with him in the brig.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:That Pavel Young should have been executed is not the question. Many people agreed with that, except for those that believed that Honor was guilty of not transferring command.

What is NOT correct is thinking that in war time, summary executions are okay. I very much doubt that is permitted under Manticoran law.

Note that at Camp Charon, in Echoes of Honor, there were actual trials of those State Sec personnel that had broken Haven's laws. Also Honor threatened Admiral Styles with charges at a court martial that could lead to execution. She definitely did not threaten him with immediate execution.

Ok, so what it might change is that during wartime, the court martial could be convened with whatever officers were present at Hancock, due to the exigencies of war.

One of the reasons his trial was delayed, as we learnt in Toll of Honor, is that HMS Nike continued operations for a few more months out of Hancock before rotating back to Manticore with him in the brig.

That is mostly my point. Everyone has a right to a speedy trial. If your charges are cut and dry, a speedy trial equates to a summary execution. Ok, a speedy execution.

tlb wrote:That Pavel Young should have been executed is not the question. Many people agreed with that, except for those that believed that Honor was guilty of not transferring command.

What is NOT correct is thinking that in war time, summary executions are okay. I very much doubt that is permitted under Manticoran law.

Note that at Camp Charon, in Echoes of Honor, there were actual trials of those State Sec personnel that had broken Haven's laws. Also Honor threatened Admiral Styles with charges at a court martial that could lead to execution. She definitely did not threaten him with immediate execution.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Ok, so what it might change is that during wartime, the court martial could be convened with whatever officers were present at Hancock, due to the exigencies of war.

One of the reasons his trial was delayed, as we learnt in Toll of Honor, is that HMS Nike continued operations for a few more months out of Hancock before rotating back to Manticore with him in the brig.

I also have doubts that would be permitted under law, because all the officers at Hancock had an interest or were witnesses. They might be able to convene an board without interest if the charges were minor, but not where he is charged with endangering the fleet and the penalty is death.

PS: The defendant's right to a speedy trial, does not mean that someone can rush that defendant into an unfair trial.

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Ok, so what it might change is that during wartime, the court martial could be convened with whatever officers were present at Hancock, due to the exigencies of war.

One of the reasons his trial was delayed, as we learnt in Toll of Honor, is that HMS Nike continued operations for a few more months out of Hancock before rotating back to Manticore with him in the brig.

I also have doubts that would be permitted under law, because all the officers at Hancock had an interest or were witnesses. They might be able to convene an board without interest if the charges were minor, but not where he is charged with endangering the fleet and the penalty is death.

I agree that the officers of Sarnow's fleet would never be allowed to form a court martial, they're too involved in the events. And while Park's officers were much more distant they presumably participated in the board of inquiry that we know led Parks to recommend the charges against Young -- so that'd disqualify them from serving on a board either.

There just wasn't a 3rd set of senior officers (and even Parks doesn't appear to be as senior as the members of the actual Court the Admiralty convened) available to serve as a neutral Court.

But I suspect, even if there were, that regs would require charges of this extreme severity to be referred back to the Admiralty; even in time of declared war.