?

Jonathan"S wrote:Even the LD isn't supposed to be carring pods of g-torps! How big (read: expensive, limited numbers, reduced accel under wedge/sail) do you think this raider is going to be?

I'm thinking that these are purpose built hyper raiders carrying tactical weapons to suit its warfare. Granted, I probably should have said mine-like g-torps instead of g-torps. At any rate, g-torps that aren't intended to travel across the system or have a power supply that lasts so long should be very small. If true, many of them could be carried aboard a raider.

Keep in mind that hyper raiders not only should be capable of following (literally tailgating) prey into hyper, they should be able to precede prey into hyper when possible. If I see you are about to enter hyper, I can enter ahead of you and lie doggo. That tactic could certainly benefit from having 3-second firing mines. Or purpose built hyper warfare limited-mobility mine-like g-torps. What is the bulk of a g-torp?

penny wrote:But if this is a hyper raider who has tricks up its sleeve, is it really going to run? If it has a 3-second firing energy weapon and has the acceleration advantage because of upgraded screens... and sensors are significantly better, then why would it necessarily run? It is optimized for hyper warfare. I disagree with Theemile on the possibility of a 3-second firing energy weapon. More on that later.

But the spider-drive works in hyper, and the raider has an accel advantage in impeller mode and adequately upgraded sensors. (I'm changing that from marginally or significantly to adequately, more on that below.)*

Jonathan_S wrote:What to upgraded screens have to do with improved acceleration? Acceleration isn't limited by particle/radiation screening -- only top speed is. And top speed only comes into play after hours of acceleration.

Now if the raider is going after a merchantman, then sure, military grade impellers and compensators would give a warship an accel advantage over the commercial grade one a merchant would presumably be carrying. But that's nothing to do with screens; and doesn't give this hyper-raider any acceleration advantage over somebody with military grade drive -- much less somebody with GA improved compensators.

Do forgive my use of analogies to explain my thoughts. Thoughts whose plot hasn't begun to settle because of many reasons, least of which is not my complete grasp of the tech and hyper warfare.

Having said that. Consider the discussion about a hybrid ship’s wedge possibly being less efficient. (Not saying that it is.)

Bracket that thought for a moment.

Now consider that a hybrid warship also has military grade screens and drives as well. Their performance lags behind the GA as the SLN's does. Perhaps the MAN warships are significantly quicker off the line than the SLN's ships.

Now, something from the books that has always stuck with me reads something like this. “The projected range of their missiles is impressive if their accel holds out.”

Now, consider that a cheetah is very fast for a very short distance. Now, unbracket the possibility that a spider ship’s wedge may not be as efficient. But because of its improved particle screens it might be able to sprint faster for a shorter distance. Like a cheetah.

I forgot to add. The upgraded sensors are for tactical use. See the video of the battle of Kirk and Khan in the Mutarra Nebula posted upstream.

penny wrote:Now, consider that a cheetah is very fast for a very short distance. Now, unbracket the possibility that a spider ship’s wedge may not be as efficient. But because of its improved particle screens it might be able to sprint faster for a shorter distance. Like a cheetah.

That is where your analogy breaks down: for a short distance, your ship is still accelerating, because it has not gotten close to the maximum velocity set by your particle screens. Whereas a cheetah has fantastic acceleration and is at its maximum velocity before many strides. A ship in the Honorverse is never going to be a cheetah (outside of a gravity wave).

Does a CM even reach its maximum velocity? How about the multiple stage CM shown at Galton?

penny wrote:I'm thinking that these are purpose built hyper raiders carrying tactical weapons to suit its warfare. Granted, I probably should have said mine-like g-torps instead of g-torps. At any rate, g-torps that aren't intended to travel across the system or have a power supply that lasts so long should be very small. If true, many of them could be carried aboard a raider.

Keep in mind that hyper raiders not only should be capable of following (literally tailgating) prey into hyper, they should be able to precede prey into hyper when possible. If I see you are about to enter hyper, I can enter ahead of you and lie doggo. That tactic could certainly benefit from having 3-second firing mines. Or purpose built hyper warfare limited-mobility mine-like g-torps. What is the bulk of a g-torp?

Mission of Honor says that "a large percentage of the torpedo’s volume had been reserved for systems which had nothing at all to do with propulsion [...] what amounted to a cruiser-grade graser projector into something small enough to deploy independently."

So even if you eliminate the spider drive a g-mine is not going to be small. Smaller, yes. But not small.

Uncompromising Honor said "the MAN’s graser torpedo…which was already nearly twice the size of a Manticoran Mark 23 MDM". Even if removing the drive and much of the plasma capacitor let you get it down to "only" the size of a Mk 23 you're still talking about something that only capital ships carry tubes large enough to handle.

Also keep in mind that if you want to keep the spider drive, but just reduce it's endurance, the length of the g-torp is directly related to its (already low) acceleration. If you make it shorter you'd have to remove projector nodes, and they already had trouble cramming enough nodes to get it up to it's pretty paltry "few hundred gravities".



Now, I guess, there's nothing stopping you from building a custom design of a smaller ship with tubes that big. Especially if you make it a pure mine and if you only need to roll a few at a time instead of simultaneously deploying an entire useful salvos of missiles. But they're going to displace more than their share of other weapons -- so make sure that g-mines are more useful than missiles or more energy mounts.

Jonathan_S wrote:I was assuming that the raider would translate down far enough out that the likely response time from any DesRon ready response force would be at least as long as the raider's recharge time.

Meaning by the time anybody was likely to translate in to investigate the raider should be able to immediately start translating out (which also has some dwell time - but its far faster than the full recharge time).

Yes, it can do that. But my point is that if the raider hypered out, it's not an insertion. They can keep leading the desron in a merry-go-round chase, tempting Lady Luck or Murphy that one of them makes a mistake or the generators break down. Other than that, it accomplishes little, at least with a single raider. The raider is not attacking anything, it's not raiding.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Now, consider that a cheetah is very fast for a very short distance. Now, unbracket the possibility that a spider ship’s wedge may not be as efficient. But because of its improved particle screens it might be able to sprint faster for a shorter distance. Like a cheetah.

That is where your analogy breaks down: for a short distance, your ship is still accelerating, because it has not gotten close to the maximum velocity set by your particle screens. Whereas a cheetah has fantastic acceleration and is at its maximum velocity before many strides. A ship in the Honorverse is never going to be a cheetah (outside of a gravity wave).

Does a CM even reach its maximum velocity? How about the multiple stage CM shown at Galton?

Well technically, if phrased like that then yes. Any CM (that doesn't die from a successful intercept first) reaches its maximum velocity at its drive burnout

But, no, it wouldn't reach the maximum velocity a missile can survive - even a Mk 31 CM 75s @ 130,000g only reaches 95,550 KPS (about 0.3c). Far below what an MDM can achieve from rest, and even they aren't quite pushing the max a missile can take (which seems at or above 0.9c)


We have very little information on the Lorica, Galton's pod launched two stage CM -- just:
* the distance the MDMs were from them when they launched (35 million km)

* a misleading statement about that being 10x the max range of the RMN's best CM (misleading because it's comparing range at CM launch to intercept range; which glosses over than the incoming MDM is covering the majority of that distance for you.

(For example if you launched a 3.5 million km range Mk31 to intercept an MDM at 3.25 million km from you then, at the moment you launch the MDM would be about 16.7 million km away. Over the CM's flight it moves 3.25 million km towards the MDM but the MDM also moves nearly 13.5 million km towards the CM; you're shooting at where it will be, not where it is.
This means Lorica only launched from about twice as far away; not 10x. All this this was assuming an initial MDM flight of 50 million km -- but illustrates the point)

* that the Mk23s had no more than 179 seconds left on their drives (1 second into their 3rd drive's activation)

* that even with support from the Scotum fire control relay platforms they couldn't use it effectively at its max range (and so they likely launched so the intercept point was inside that max powered range).


But we don't have Lorica’s accel, range from rest, runtime of its drives; nothing. And there's just too many variable to come to a reasonable reconstruction (I can come up with a plausible one if they launched for a max range intercept (2x60s @ around 110,000g for a ~7.7 million km intercept @ 0.43c) . But about all I'd be willing to stand by is even Lorica isn't coming anywhere near the max velocity of an MDM.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I was assuming that the raider would translate down far enough out that the likely response time from any DesRon ready response force would be at least as long as the raider's recharge time.

Meaning by the time anybody was likely to translate in to investigate the raider should be able to immediately start translating out (which also has some dwell time - but its far faster than the full recharge time).

Yes, it can do that. But my point is that if the raider hypered out, it's not an insertion. They can keep leading the desron in a merry-go-round chase, tempting Lady Luck or Murphy that one of them makes a mistake or the generators break down. Other than that, it accomplishes little, at least with a single raider. The raider is not attacking anything, it's not raiding.

Absolutely.
This trick only works if you've got enough ships involved that you can afford to see which incursions draw reaction forces in a timely manner (those flee and likely try again) and those lucky enough not to draw a response proceed with sneaking in.
And at some point you call off the game and send a fair number of the original ships home.

In effect you'd be trading off at least virtual (and hopefully not physical) force attrition to reduce the timelines. By accepting that, say, 1/2 to 1/3rd of your ships are going to end up being only decoys and won't get to stay for the attack you're hoping to get the other 1/2 to 2/3rds snuck in without spending months in normal space to do so.

tlb wrote:Does a CM even reach its maximum velocity?

Jonathan_S wrote:Well technically, if phrased like that then yes. Any CM (that doesn't die from a successful intercept first) reaches its maximum velocity at its drive burnout

As you guessed, I was asking this in relation to the maximum velocity set by shielding. The MDM has the addition of a physical shield to protect its sensors prior to getting into target range (if I remember correctly).

In either case, the CM does not reach its maximum velocity before the end of its run, so not a cheetah. Is there a demolition charge at that point? Otherwise it has become a KEW (although not necessarily a sturdy one).

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I was assuming that the raider would translate down far enough out that the likely response time from any DesRon ready response force would be at least as long as the raider's recharge time.

Meaning by the time anybody was likely to translate in to investigate the raider should be able to immediately start translating out (which also has some dwell time - but its far faster than the full recharge time).

Yes, it can do that. But my point is that if the raider hypered out, it's not an insertion. They can keep leading the desron in a merry-go-round chase, tempting Lady Luck or Murphy that one of them makes a mistake or the generators break down. Other than that, it accomplishes little, at least with a single raider. The raider is not attacking anything, it's not raiding.

Just remember not to be too arrogant by overlooking the tactical flexibility of the MAN if it goes all in on hyper warfare.

What is the order of battle of the DesRon squadron? Let's say a Wolfpack squadron is at least 3 ships and the mine-torps are as small as possible. Even if they can only carry two apiece that is 6 g-torp mines laid in a web for one spider to lure the DesRon in.

Also, consider that a minelayer can lay actual g-torps, and a supply ship can wait in hyper to quickly resupply the raider with its two missiles. Heck, a hyper raider should be able to tow a full sized g-torp just out of the higher hyper band.

Also consider the tactical flexibility of being able to station your colliers and support ships in a hyper band inaccessible to the enemy. Technically hanging out in the attic of your own house. Unprecedented tactical flexibility.

But if a Collier is laying stealthy g-torps in hyper, that is worse than stumbling into hell itself. Hyper Warfare MAN style.

Also, it is dangerous for a DesRon to follow a raider into hyper for the above reason alone, and for another reason. A welcome party is being arranged to attempt to sucker punch it when it returns. The problem with the DesRon’s response is the DesRon squadron probably wouldn't be smart enough to leave a ship behind. And that ship could be destroyed anyway. And the MO of the RMN probably doesn't support the DesRon while it is chasing what it thinks is a single target.

Whatchamacallit? Institutional arrogance?

penny wrote:What is the order of battle of the DesRon squadron? Let's say a Wolfpack squadron is at least 3 ships and the mine-torps are as small as possible. Even if they can only carry two apiece that is 6 g-torp mines laid in a web for one spider to lure the DesRon in.

A full Destroyer Squadron (DesRon)? IIRC 3-4 divisions each with 4 ships - so 12-16 destroyers.