Malign suicide protocols and regular stress?

In to end in fire there is what i think good speculation that it's stress that triggers them. But it's also mention that they can't put them in navy officers because that's a stressful job. So how are they avoiding loosing people to false positives? Even in groundside civilian life i figure there are plenty of stressful events that would probably cross the threshold. I'm thinking of things like an very abusive, constantly yelling at you boss for things that aren't your fault.

Puidwen wrote:In to end in fire there is what i think good speculation that it's stress that triggers them. But it's also mention that they can't put them in navy officers because that's a stressful job. So how are they avoiding loosing people to false positives? Even in groundside civilian life i figure there are plenty of stressful events that would probably cross the threshold. I'm thinking of things like an very abusive, constantly yelling at you boss for things that aren't your fault.

People in those stressful jobs probably aren't given nanites, probably because such a boss wouldn't be allowed near the jobs that need nanites in the first place or the individual in question wouldn't have been targeted by the MAlign either. Among the things that the genetic engineering appears to have done in the MAlign population is to make them very rational and level-headed. You don't plan and carry out a centuries-long conspiracy if you're rash.

There are probably sudden, false positives that they can't avoid. For example, someone might accidentally walk into a cartoon scenario and a safe fall from the 20th floor in front of them. The spike in stress may trigger the nanites. For those, it's probably within the acceptable loss ratio.

Moreover, it looks like the nanites need to be armed to be effective. The general MAlign population of Darius does not appear to be so armed -- Gail's nanites weren't -- so they are mostly safe. It's only the agents sent out-field that probably have them constantly armed, sometimes without their knowledge. The actual MAlign agents are probably well-trained in their craft and don't get stressed easily: for example, the agents caught in Maya were alive after being caught and the interrogation had begun (they appear to have triggered the nanites voluntarily). The MAlign proxies are not going to be as trained and those the MAlign will have to accept sporadic losses.

We've also had a question of whether the nanites have a time kill: that is, if they aren't pinged properly after a while, would they kill their subject? If so, there may be a sudden spike in unexplained, natural deaths coming.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Puidwen wrote:In to end in fire there is what i think good speculation that it's stress that triggers them. But it's also mention that they can't put them in navy officers because that's a stressful job. So how are they avoiding loosing people to false positives? Even in groundside civilian life i figure there are plenty of stressful events that would probably cross the threshold. I'm thinking of things like an very abusive, constantly yelling at you boss for things that aren't your fault.

People in those stressful jobs probably aren't given nanites, probably because such a boss wouldn't be allowed near the jobs that need nanites in the first place or the individual in question wouldn't have been targeted by the MAlign either. Among the things that the genetic engineering appears to have done in the MAlign population is to make them very rational and level-headed. You don't plan and carry out a centuries-long conspiracy if you're rash.

There are probably sudden, false positives that they can't avoid. For example, someone might accidentally walk into a cartoon scenario and a safe fall from the 20th floor in front of them. The spike in stress may trigger the nanites. For those, it's probably within the acceptable loss ratio.

Moreover, it looks like the nanites need to be armed to be effective. The general MAlign population of Darius does not appear to be so armed -- Gail's nanites weren't -- so they are mostly safe. It's only the agents sent out-field that probably have them constantly armed, sometimes without their knowledge. The actual MAlign agents are probably well-trained in their craft and don't get stressed easily: for example, the agents caught in Maya were alive after being caught and the interrogation had begun (they appear to have triggered the nanites voluntarily). The MAlign proxies are not going to be as trained and those the MAlign will have to accept sporadic losses.

We've also had a question of whether the nanites have a time kill: that is, if they aren't pinged properly after a while, would they kill their subject? If so, there may be a sudden spike in unexplained, natural deaths coming.

A reread on my part may be in order, but I do not think that that is completely true. It can't be simply stress in general, but stress from a particular set of circumstances, like specific questions posed in an interrogation. Or simply being caught would kill before the suspect even reached the interrogation room. Heck, sexual tension because of a lack thereof can be stressful. Hmm... perhaps sex slaves were originally designed to take the edge off of spies and agents. Therefore, Monica Lewinsky was doing a service for her country.

Anyway, as we discussed before, agents and spies are taught to be cool, calm and collected. They don't punk out and sing like a Canary even emotionally. These people are trained to remain cool enough to beat lie detectors.

Are we agreed that the GA will have to find information on the biological nanites used in the suicide protocols at Galton? Is it reasonable to think that if the scientific researchers at Beowulf get enough detail, then they could work up an antidote to those nanites? And perhaps a vaccine to prevent infection?

I can imagine military personnel (including civilian researchers on military projects) being told that they are required to get a new anti-interrogation shot. If any already have the nanites, then they will come down with a strong fever and require hospitalization as the nanites are cleaned from their system; thus flagging the people who might be agents. This could be expanded to anyone in a sensitive position, that might need to be protected from interrogation.

I am not sure of the legalities of administering these shots to anyone brought in on suspicion.

tlb wrote:Are we agreed that the GA will have to find information on the biological nanites used in the suicide protocols at Galton? Is it reasonable to think that if the scientific researchers at Beowulf get enough detail, then they could work up an antidote to those nanites? And perhaps a vaccine to prevent infection?

I can imagine military personnel (including civilian researchers on military projects) being told that they are required to get a new anti-interrogation shot. If any already have the nanites, then they will come down with a strong fever and require hospitalization as the nanites are cleaned from their system; thus flagging the people who might be agents. This could be expanded to anyone in a sensitive position, that might need to be protected from interrogation.

I am not sure of the legalities of administering these shots to anyone brought in on suspicion.

Hard to say since we are given little detail of their construction. I'd tend to think the nanites won't leave anything there to examine. And of course, even if it is possible it would most likely take much longer than it took Allison to solve Grayson's problems, even if they can acquire a sample.

I always thought that if they could get to a victim fast enough to keep him alive on life support it might be possible to safely extract a sample. But how do you keep a sample from self destructing if it isn't in its environment?

tlb wrote:Are we agreed that the GA will have to find information on the biological nanites used in the suicide protocols at Galton? Is it reasonable to think that if the scientific researchers at Beowulf get enough detail, then they could work up an antidote to those nanites? And perhaps a vaccine to prevent infection?

I can imagine military personnel (including civilian researchers on military projects) being told that they are required to get a new anti-interrogation shot. If any already have the nanites, then they will come down with a strong fever and require hospitalization as the nanites are cleaned from their system; thus flagging the people who might be agents. This could be expanded to anyone in a sensitive position, that might need to be protected from interrogation.

I am not sure of the legalities of administering these shots to anyone brought in on suspicion.

penny wrote:Hard to say since we are given little detail of their construction. I'd tend to think the nanites won't leave anything there to examine. And of course, even if it is possible it would most likely take much longer than it took Allison to solve Grayson's problems, even if they can acquire a sample.

I always thought that if they could get to a victim fast enough to keep him alive on life support it might be possible to safely extract a sample. But how do you keep a sample from self destructing if it isn't in its environment?

No, I am saying that Galton ought to have documentation on the construction and training of the nanites; otherwise the nanites must have some source other than Galton.

There was the one Gamma on Mesa that died and was immediately put in a freezer (if I remember correctly), but Galton should have source materials.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Are we agreed that the GA will have to find information on the biological nanites used in the suicide protocols at Galton? Is it reasonable to think that if the scientific researchers at Beowulf get enough detail, then they could work up an antidote to those nanites? And perhaps a vaccine to prevent infection?

I can imagine military personnel (including civilian researchers on military projects) being told that they are required to get a new anti-interrogation shot. If any already have the nanites, then they will come down with a strong fever and require hospitalization as the nanites are cleaned from their system; thus flagging the people who might be agents. This could be expanded to anyone in a sensitive position, that might need to be protected from interrogation.

I am not sure of the legalities of administering these shots to anyone brought in on suspicion.

penny wrote:Hard to say since we are given little detail of their construction. I'd tend to think the nanites won't leave anything there to examine. And of course, even if it is possible it would most likely take much longer than it took Allison to solve Grayson's problems, even if they can acquire a sample.

I always thought that if they could get to a victim fast enough to keep him alive on life support it might be possible to safely extract a sample. But how do you keep a sample from self destructing if it isn't in its environment?

No, I am saying that Galton ought to have documentation on the construction and training of the nanites; otherwise the nanites must have some source other than Galton.

There was the one Gamma on Mesa that died and was immediately put in a freezer (if I remember correctly), but Galton should have source materials.

Am I missing another memo? I wouldn't expect Galton to even be aware of the nanites. I suspect that little bugger is very compartmentalized. It would be too easy to deploy it against the Inner Onion.

tlb wrote:Are we agreed that the GA will have to find information on the biological nanites used in the suicide protocols at Galton? Is it reasonable to think that if the scientific researchers at Beowulf get enough detail, then they could work up an antidote to those nanites? And perhaps a vaccine to prevent infection?

I can imagine military personnel (including civilian researchers on military projects) being told that they are required to get a new anti-interrogation shot. If any already have the nanites, then they will come down with a strong fever and require hospitalization as the nanites are cleaned from their system; thus flagging the people who might be agents. This could be expanded to anyone in a sensitive position, that might need to be protected from interrogation.

I am not sure of the legalities of administering these shots to anyone brought in on suspicion.

penny wrote:Hard to say since we are given little detail of their construction. I'd tend to think the nanites won't leave anything there to examine. And of course, even if it is possible it would most likely take much longer than it took Allison to solve Grayson's problems, even if they can acquire a sample.

I always thought that if they could get to a victim fast enough to keep him alive on life support it might be possible to safely extract a sample. But how do you keep a sample from self destructing if it isn't in its environment?

tlb wrote:No, I am saying that Galton ought to have documentation on the construction and training of the nanites; otherwise the nanites must have some source other than Galton.

There was the one Gamma on Mesa that died and was immediately put in a freezer (if I remember correctly), but Galton should have source materials.

penny wrote:Am I missing another memo? I wouldn't expect Galton to even be aware of the nanites. I suspect that little bugger is very compartmentalized. It would be too easy to deploy it against the Inner Onion.

Let's remember what Galton's sacrifice was intended to accomplish: Galton would be proved guilty of ALL the bad things that had happened, so that there would be no further hunt for a secret Malign headquarters. This strains credulity somewhat, unless the GA accepts that Oyster Bay could have been accomplished with conventional stealth and inertial insertion. But it fails completely, if Galton cannot be believed to be the source of the nanite suicide protocol.

If Galton knows nothing about the nanite suicide protocol, then it must have another source. Mention of the spider drive could perhaps be passed off as something that proved to be a dead end, but the use of the suicide nanites was too widespread and too successful to be ignored. If Galton was not the source, then there is another center of evil that still exists.

tlb wrote:No, I am saying that Galton ought to have documentation on the construction and training of the nanites; otherwise the nanites must have some source other than Galton.

There was the one Gamma on Mesa that died and was immediately put in a freezer (if I remember correctly), but Galton should have source materials.

penny wrote:Am I missing another memo? I wouldn't expect Galton to even be aware of the nanites. I suspect that little bugger is very compartmentalized. It would be too easy to deploy it against the Inner Onion.

Let's remember what Galton's sacrifice was intended to accomplish: Galton would be proved guilty of ALL the bad things that had happened, so that there would be no further hunt for a secret Malign headquarters. This strains credulity somewhat, unless the GA accepts that Oyster Bay could have been accomplished with conventional stealth and inertial insertion. But it fails completely, if Galton cannot be believed to be the source of the nanite suicide protocol.

If Galton knows nothing about the nanite suicide protocol, then it must have another source. Mention of the spider drive could perhaps be passed off as something that proved to be a dead end, but the use of the suicide nanites was too widespread and too successful to be ignored. If Galton was not the source, then there is another center of evil that still exists.[/quote]
Yep.

This is very likely another major clue that Galton is, in fact, not the end of the road for the MAlign. Another way it seems like it will fail in its goal to be the sacrificial fall guy that convinces any enemy that the job's done, and they can go home. There are no more scary men behind the curtain.

And it's a clue I hadn't considered before.


So now I think that the GA has four potential major clue letting them know that Galton wasn't the final base of the MAlign.
1) No evidence of the spider ships that Simones told them the MAlign had. (And depending on whether Galton had streak ships lack of them may also slot in here)

2) Sensor records showing that the graser weapons used to defend Galton were different, and weaker, than those used in Oyster Bay.

3) Some folks identified as alive after they'd supposedly been nuked on Mesa; who never show up on Galton.

4) No evidence of Galton being the source of the MAlign nanites; which Manticore and Haven each have different evidence of the existence of.

Some of those are weaker than others; but collectively should be quickly convincing that Galton likely isn't what it purported to be

tlb wrote:No, I am saying that Galton ought to have documentation on the construction and training of the nanites; otherwise the nanites must have some source other than Galton.

There was the one Gamma on Mesa that died and was immediately put in a freezer (if I remember correctly), but Galton should have source materials.

penny wrote:Am I missing another memo? I wouldn't expect Galton to even be aware of the nanites. I suspect that little bugger is very compartmentalized. It would be too easy to deploy it against the Inner Onion.

Let's remember what Galton's sacrifice was intended to accomplish: Galton would be proved guilty of ALL the bad things that had happened, so that there would be no further hunt for a secret Malign headquarters. This strains credulity somewhat, unless the GA accepts that Oyster Bay could have been accomplished with conventional stealth and inertial insertion. But it fails completely, if Galton cannot be believed to be the source of the nanite suicide protocol.

If Galton knows nothing about the nanite suicide protocol, then it must have another source. Mention of the spider drive could perhaps be passed off as something that proved to be a dead end, but the use of the suicide nanites was too widespread and too successful to be ignored. If Galton was not the source, then there is another center of evil that still exists.[/quote]

Jonathan_S wrote:Yep.

This is very likely another major clue that Galton is, in fact, not the end of the road for the MAlign. Another way it seems like it will fail in its goal to be the sacrificial fall guy that convinces any enemy that the job's done, and they can go home. There are no more scary men behind the curtain.

And it's a clue I hadn't considered before.


So now I think that the GA has four potential major clue letting them know that Galton wasn't the final base of the MAlign.
1) No evidence of the spider ships that Simones told them the MAlign had. (And depending on whether Galton had streak ships lack of them may also slot in here)

2) Sensor records showing that the graser weapons used to defend Galton were different, and weaker, than those used in Oyster Bay.

3) Some folks identified as alive after they'd supposedly been nuked on Mesa; who never show up on Galton.

4) No evidence of Galton being the source of the MAlign nanites; which Manticore and Haven each have different evidence of the existence of.

Some of those are weaker than others; but collectively should be quickly convincing that Galton likely isn't what it purported to be

Oyster Bay could have been the result of conventional weapons, and perhaps a prototype weapon.

The nanites are hardly a problem. That is something that is created in a lab. Labs and their research are easily destroyed. It is plausible that it might not have been something the entire navy was privy of. It is a very compartmentalized and classified weapon. After all, it cannot be allowed to fall into the wrong hands. So the highest of clearance would be expected. NEED TO KNOW!